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Dyslexia question?
Author Message
Posted: Wed, 23 July 2003 10:35:27
Subject:

Dyslexia question?

Does anyone know or have any opinions on this subject? My specific question is: Is Dyslexia strictly a "problem with learning to read" or is it more of a problem involving "all aspects of language", ie: rhyming, word order in a sentence, word retrieval, spelling, consonant blends, etc.?

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 23 July 2003 14:41:14
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

The cause of dyslexia is neurological and it is considered a language-based disability. Thus, it can and does effect more than just, reading, however the areas that are hardest hit, presumably because they are so dependent upon the neurological skills that dyslexia negatively impacts, are reading and writing.

Janis
Posted: Wed, 23 July 2003 15:24:10
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

This is an interesting question. I was just reading in the Shaywitz "Overcoming Dyslexia" book that they differentiate between types of dyslexia. (p. 140)

developmental dyslexia- phonologic weakness primary, language system intact, reading impairment at single word decoding level

language learning disability- primary deficit involves all aspects of language, including both sounds and meanings of words. Reading difficulty at decoding and comprehension, verbal IQ may be effected

acquired alexia- loss of reading ability due to brain trauma or stroke effecting brain systems needed for reading

Janis

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 23 July 2003 16:30:42
Subject:

Dyslexia

Thanks for the replies Anitya and Janis!

I read the book "Can't Read, Can't write, Can't Talk Too Good Either" a long time ago when my oldest was very young and it described a child with dysfunction in all areas of language. I think the diagnosis of that child was Dyslexia. Later on I had 2 more children and, wouldn't you know, my youngest has a whole host of learning problems, mainly in the language area. I am starting to wonder if she isn't Dyslexic in the broadest sense, like the child in the Book....meaning she has trouble with ALL aspects of language; couldn't rhyme words or remember nursery rhymes, can't spell well (guesses in the most outlandish ways...not phonetically), is having a tough time learning to read even in special ed, can't follow multi-step instructions, mixes her word order up in a spoken sentence, letter reversals...you name it she's had problems with it! I was just curious, though, if Dyslexia is strictly "a written word problem"...reading and writing, or if it applies to all forms of language AND who would be best to take my daughter to for an evaluation? She has been dx'd with Asperger's, but I am wondering if it is truly that, or just a horrible case of Dyslexia that started in toddlerhood! She does fit some of the Asperger traits, though, so maybe it is just "denial" on my part.

Janis
Posted: Wed, 23 July 2003 17:04:43
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Debra,

Some of those are symptoms of auditory processing disorder. Audiologists who specialize in APD are the ones who evaluate for this. It certainly can be an underlying cause of dyslexia...either the decoding or language-based kind. I favor audiologists who are also speech-pathologists as they can give more comprehensive recommendations for therapy. There is a professional listing link on the site below.

For more info: go to www.ncapd.org. Unfortunately the message board there is down, but there is a chat with an audiologist/speech pathologist on most Tues. nights from 8-10 pm if you have questions.

I'd also recommend the book I mentioned earlier, "Overcoming Dyslexia", by Sally Shaywitz as it is the most up-to-date book on dyslexia. Two good ones on APD are "When the Brain Can't Hear" by Teri Bellis and "Like Sound Through Water" by Karen Foli.

Janis

MM
Posted: Wed, 23 July 2003 18:58:28
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I read somewhere that Dyslexia comes from the Greek word meaning “difficulty with words or language”. It is difficulty in learning to read and write – particularly learning to spell correctly and to express your thoughts on paper-, which affects those who have had normal schooling and do not show backwardness in other subjects.

One dyslexic child may have a very different set of dyslexic characteristics to another, but will share with all dyslexics the specific difficulty of learning to read, write, and spell.

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 09:06:31
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Janis, Thanks for all of the good info. I will look into the books you mentioned...I am very fond of books anyhow, so would love to read them (that is what seems so hard for me to understand...reading is my favorite thing to do, I can't believe my child hates it so much!). My daughter did go to language therapy for 1 1/2 when she was 3-4 (she's 7 now) but I don't know if there was an audiologist / speech person there. I don't know how much to pursue this because she is already in special Ed for reading/spelling, and don't know if anymore "labeling" is necessary for services...the teacher already knows that my girl has problems! I guess I am just very curious about the exact cause of all of her problems.

Maricel, Thanks for your reply, also. I appreciate all feedback!

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 09:07:57
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Sorry, forgot to post my name in the above message!!! It was me...Debra!

Janis
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 10:06:37
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Debra,

I can see we are somewhat alike! I did go as far as the APD testing for my own child just because I was curious. I am sure many LD kids are APD, but that is never officially diagnosed. All the schools really diagnose are the academic problems. But what is more important than getting APD testing is making sure the school is using effective methods for remediating the reading and spelling problems. Most aren't, unfortunately.

Janis

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 10:50:24
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Thanks again for replying, Janis!

I don't know if the school is using the proper methods to teach my daughter how to read...I hope so, but I don't know if it is too early to tell (just finished 1st grade...she can read a very little, but not much). The teacher (sp ed) is great as far as personality goes and I think she is doing a good job relating to my daughter. They are learning phonics (the 4 kids in the class with my daughter) and also "wall words" which are sight words. My daughter seems to be good with the sight words, but horrible at sounding out words. She has no interest in reading (I guess that would be predictable since it is so hard for her) but she likes me to read to her. We (I) read a couple of books last night and I had her read the last sentence in each book. She was not happy about that and fussed about it, but I told her she had to do it or I wasn't reading the next book...so, she complied. I want to help her but she is so difficult to help because she is so very oppositional about reading. She whines and falls on the floor any time I ask her to read anything.

How old is your child? Have you had good results with teachers?

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 11:27:14
Subject:

Aspergers is more of a sensory integration issue

It does occur co-morbidly with other deficits. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Aspergers in the SSI spectrum. Is she is sensitive to sounds as many children with SSI are, but I have seen in children I have worked with who have Aspergers that it does have a global impact on their acquistion of language specifically with integration of sensory stimuli. She may be able to use words intelligently but she isn't grasping the meaning behind the words, meaning she is smart enough to go through the motions. However, her intentions are very self centered, she may ahve problems taking the others point of view as she may have issues with social interactions with others.

She may not have a lot of "common sense, and acts impusively because of problems with focusing and attention. It is really hard to say with a child who has Aspergers where their deficts lie because they can be quite pervasive and are interlocked into so many facets of communication. What I have seen is that kids with SSI issues may be great word callers They "read" using their visual memory but they have difficutly in connecting the sounds with the symbols they represent.

Janis
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 11:29:20
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Debra,

My child is 7 1/2 and just completed her second year of first grade. She was the youngest child in her class the first year, and I just did not think she was ready in any way for second grade, so we gave her an extra year of first since the teacher was good and they use Saxon phonics, which is also good.

She is in a charter school and we have a very good principal who used to be an educational psychologist. Well, he still is, actually, but his primary role is senior principal of the school. So he understands special ed very well and has been very receptive to training in best methods. Now I can't say everything is perfect yet, but they are far ahead of the regular public schools as to training and methods.

What I would suggest is that you call the LD teacher and ask her what specific program she is using to teach decoding skills. You should ask her what specific methods she has been trained in. I think your daughter should be further along with decoding if the resource class was doing it's job. The word wall is a clue to me that she may not be using appropriate methods, but I'll reserve judgement until you find out. It takes a structured, multi-sensory language program to teach reading to true LD kids. A little phonics and word walls won't do it.

I will be glad to help you and there are other great reading teachers on this board who can help you. But you must attack this problem now and do not trust that the school knows how to fix the problem. I have many sweet, wonderful friends who teach special ed. who truly love the kids and are completely clueless about remediating reading. It makes me crazy, but that's the way it is.

Janis

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 12:29:49
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Thanks for the replies!

Patti, my daughter has been dx'd with Asperger's and before that PDD-NOS. And yes, you are right, she does have problems in all the areas that you mentioned!

Janis, Thanks for the information, you sound very educated on the subject and I appreciate your input! This reading problem of my daughter's has me doubting myself constantly! I don't know for sure what method is being used at school. I know that there is a lot of decoding and symbols to go along with it, ie: crossing out silent letters, breve's, accent marks, putting blocks around same sounding consonant pairs ...clo[ck]...things like that. I thought it was Saxon, but I'm really not sure. I know that the math that is taught at the school is Saxon. I don't know what my daughter should know at this age, either. Believe it or not, I have two older daughter's (14 & 12) who did just fine with all of their learning, so this is all new to me. I'm sure the Asperger's is complicating everything because it makes her very oppositional about things that aren't her idea AND she never does anything solely to "please" others...you know, "Please read this to mommy, it would make me so happy" ...that kind of reasoning just doesn't work with her.

What do you think she REALLY should "know" at this age. She's almost 7 1/2 years old, she's completed 2 years of Developmental preschool, one year of reg. ed. kindergarten and 1 year of reg. ed 1st grade with 90 mins of pull-out time daily for reading/spelling instruction, plus 30 mins weekly of OT. Please any advice would be most appreciated...I don't want her to fall too far behind.

Thank you very much!

des
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 13:17:23
Subject:

Re: Aspergers is more of a sensory integration issue

Quote patti:

It does occur co-morbidly with other deficits. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Aspergers in the SSI spectrum. Is she is sensitive to

Quote patti:

I thought Aspergers is considered to be part of the *autism spectrum*. In fact, I wish they would just call this all the autism spectrum disorders and stop getting into all this PDD and AS and whatever. Just a personal thing.
Anyway I'm not saying that AS kids wouldn't be sensitive to sounds but I for one am on excellent reader (or shall I say decoder-- I can decode anything and maybe if it's upside down it's even easier :-)). Comprehension is maybe a different thing.

Quote patti:

But my nephew who is definitely autistic is also dyslexic.

Quote patti:

My understanding is that dyslexia is trouble with reading and spelling. But that dysgraphia and articulation problems can go with it.
I suppose if there is real difficulty with speech, like speech processing and so on it would be a generalized language disorder.

Quote patti:

As a matter of fact, some AS kids do very well in school, at least the academic part!! When they actually get to the getting along with other kids part, well that's a different story.

Quote patti:


>What I have seen is that kids with SSI issues may be great word callers >They "read" using their visual memory but they have difficutly in >>connecting the sounds with the symbols they represent.

I taught myself to read at 3. I'm sure I wasn't decoding then.
But I can decode now. Mind you it doesn't take any repetitions to remember the word afterwards. And I could remember words and the looks of words before I could decode. As for comprehension, it is pretty poor. I have no trouble with most nonfiction but my reading of fiction is pretty much Harry Potter for which I am something of a Potternut. :-)

--des

pattim
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 14:34:54
Subject:

I know it is in the spectrum

But I was trying to be sensitive to what a parent is going through. :) I can see the whole picture because I am an SLP, but each case varies in regards to Aspergers. From what I have seen working with children who have these types of disorders is I have to be really careful with how I word things with the parents. Also as an SLP I can't come out and diagnose a disorder over the web, but I can describe similar situations and see if that may help them in some way.

I don't think a child should be forced to read when it is something that just causes contention, and perhaps developmentally she isn't ready to read right now. That doesn't mean that it won't happen within a few years. But what I would focus on now is to get a child that is this oppositional to reading comfortable with listening to short stories that are of interest to her, to keep vocabulary up. Also perhaps something like Writing with Symbols would help, where she can "write" through dictation and then illustrate and read her own stories. Make literacy FUN!! :wink:

What I am concerned is that the more reading is pounded down a child's throat the more oppositional they will become to reading and this opposition can have a negative impact on a relationship with the caregiver.

pattim
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 14:45:15
Subject:

one more thing..

Decoding sometimes doesn't make sense for children with Aspergers/autism. and to continue with more of the same decoding exercises could be exasperating the problem.

Perhaps a more predictive reading approach, with familiar stories would be good to use Also using a fluency program like Great Leaps or Read Naturally with audio tapes to help with the auditory processing piece would be better approach. I suggest this because if she is memorizing words like I suspect she is this would speed up the sound symbol relationship.

Aspergers puts a whole different spin on teaching literacy using a phonological based approach, for children with the autism spectrum it confuses them. They think in VISUAL imagery not connecting a sound/with a symbol like others.

I am off my soap box now... :oops:

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 15:33:24
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

You brought up a good point pattim, about the negative relationship with the caregiver (mom) when forcing academics. That is something that I worry about a lot. The reg. ed teacher told me that the 1st grade homework assignments were for "parent/child bonding" purposes! When a child has LD's or developmental issues or whatever, homework is NOT a bonding experience!!! I feel compelled to help my daughter learn as much as I can, but sometimes I make her do academic work that is much too frustrating for her (and me!) just so the teacher will know that I am a CARING parent, because caring parents care about their child's education!!! This is a difficult position to be in.

I really do appreciate all input and I am glad that I posed this question. Maybe Dyslexia can occur with Asperger's or maybe Asperger's looks like Dyslexia in the language arena. I have not pushed my daughter much all this summer because I really felt she needed an "academic break"....she was shutting down last school year and refusing to do any work for her teachers. Now I am starting to ease her into reading by simply reading to her! I hope that is a good approach.

des
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 19:03:22
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I decided I might read thru the whole thread. One of the things complicating working with AS kids is that "new is bad". So if something new is introduced they immediately won't like it. This is especially true if it is hard. It isn't true that no AS kids can decode or it is hard for all AS kids but in some cases other approaches might be looked into, but keep in mind they will all be work and unpleasant at least initially. I think LiPs might make some sense because it uses visual and kinesthetic modalities.
Of course most AS kids would hate it initially as it is very new! :-}

BTW, some of the AS pages refer parents to CAPD pages. I think that some kids who are dxed as AS are CAPD.

You might look at the Oasis page-- sorry I don't know the URL, but you could just type "Aspergers"+"OASIS" into the search engine.

--des

Janis
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 20:30:03
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

"BTW, some of the AS pages refer parents to CAPD pages. I think that some kids who are dxed as AS are CAPD. "

Oh, I think so, too, des! In some disorders, there are many overlapping symptoms. And the professional who diagnoses does so through the lens of his own expertise. I don't think many people understand APD at all.

Debra, I probably need to read back through the whole thread because I somehow missed or forgot the part about the AS diagnosis. As Patti said, that might change instructional methods. However, I will tell you that Saxon phonics was used in my child's regular ed. class, not special ed. They need to use a program like Orton-Gillingham, Phono-Graphix, Language!, Lindamood-bell, etc. in the special ed. class for dyslexic children. You were probably describing Saxon phonics. My child's school also uses Saxon math in the early grades (regular class) and it has been good for my child.

Janis

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 24 July 2003 22:45:51
Subject:

I will be out of town for a few days

So I won't be around to answer questions. I thought I was the one with ADD...but I picked up on the AS as did Des... it sounds like you have a feeling for what I am concerned about.

Here is a fun idea...does she like music? Try Sounds Like Fun CD from Discovery Toys. I know the district I work for uses this in pre-school classes with kids who have autism, it is fun, it is predictable, and the audio has some guitar playing but the words are really crystal clear. I think this may be something that can be fun and can also teach her language.

Janis
Posted: Fri, 25 July 2003 10:45:30
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I was talking last night to someone who tutors AS/autistic kids with Phono-Graphix (Reading Reflex). She says that many kids in the spectrum need to be taught using a structured language/phonics approach and that she thinks it is an error to assume most kids with autism need a sight approach. Anyway, she personally is having success with Reading Reflex and she is tutoring several kids this summer.

Debra, the book Reading Reflex is very easy to follow if you could get your child to work with you. Or you might could hire a tutor to do it with her if that would work better. Or better yet, buy the special ed. teacher a copy and ask her to use it!

Janis

Janis
Posted: Fri, 25 July 2003 10:47:17
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Patti, I'm not sure if my diagnosis would be ADD or just middle age memory overload! ;-)

Janis

Janis
Posted: Fri, 25 July 2003 10:55:23
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Going back through the posts, I was under the impression that Debra was not sure about the Asperger's diagnosis and that her daughter also has APD symptoms which have not been diganosed. I think I would pursue that testing if it were me.

Janis

des
Posted: Fri, 25 July 2003 14:56:49
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Quote Janis:

I was talking last night to someone who tutors AS/autistic kids with Phono-Graphix (Reading Reflex). she thinks it is an error to assume most kids with autism need a sight approach. Anyway, she personally is having success with Reading Reflex and she is tutoring several kids this summer.

Quote Janis:

Janis

Well there is a difference betweeen AS/ high functioning autistic kids who have language and lower functioning autistic kids without language. If the kid had no language, no speech sounds to work with they might be able to memorize the sounds but they would be entirely meaningless. (I think we talked about a case of this here). But AS kids do have language, and can learn to decode-- although there are probably exceptions. Even if their visual memory is unusually good it would be unlikely that any child could learn to read say beyond a 6th grade (usually I'd say 3-4th) without a means of decoding. There are AS kids with dyslexia, this is not entirely unusual but they may have a more difficult time with sounds/etc. than more typical dyslexic kids.

I'd go ahead and try the Phono-graphix, if that didn't work I'd go on to LiPs.

--des

Janis
Posted: Fri, 25 July 2003 15:52:49
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I agree, des.

Janis

Anonymous
Posted: Sat, 26 July 2003 11:07:38
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

It is not at all unusual for children who fall on the autism spectrum to have eidetic memories. More often than not, they seem to learn to read words and spell very easily. They usually have difficulty with understanding. Frankly, when I see child of this sort, I don't worry about the decoding issue. If they learn to read words and read at grade level, they will probably keep it up.

Generally I do NOT advise an over emphasis on sight reading because by about third grade reading level this breaks down for the typical child. The A.S. students I have worked with did not have that difficulty.

However, today we are diagnosing children as A.S. (autism spectrum) in private settings who really only have A.S. characteristics in one area. I question whether some of these children are on the spectrum at all. I have taught one such child for two years. While he has the diagnosis, from a private psych., he only shows A.S. symptoms in the area of language understanding. He is not an expert decoder.

But, when they show A.S. behaviors in several domains, they usually also learn magnificently by rote.

des
Posted: Sat, 26 July 2003 15:33:44
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Though I think they were talking about an AS kid with difficulty decoding, which would mean maybe that they were not reading everything. I think if you get a kid with this kind of eidetic memory for words, you are not going to see trouble with reading/figuring out words. I myself have this and I had the barest intro to phonics you can imagine (we were in the middle of the whole word thing back then).

But dyslexia is not unknown in the AS population. So this is what to do with this kind of kid. I agree that many AS kids will have no trouble reading (ie figuring out the words). I feel that the eidetic memory for words might be sort of a savant ability that all kids do not have. I think that at some point they are going to learn/know letter sounds but it may not be a matter of really specific teaching. There is a lot of causal teaching of this that is going on without realizing it." A is for apple" may not be the greatest phonics education, but it is enough for some kids, AS or otherwise.

As for someone dxed with AS in one domain and not another. There are dyslexic AS kids, that would be in the autistic spectrum in every area. Maybe you just haven't run into them. I know a lot of AS kids excel in school and would never be seen in special ed resource.


--des

des
Posted: Sat, 26 July 2003 15:59:13
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I reread this though and it makes me wonder what exactly the problem is. Is the problem reading? Or is the problem not liking or finding this kind of exercize meaningless?


I don't know if I would do this sort of thing with a "normal" 7 1/2 year old. You want them to enjoy reading, etc. and not be writing in accent marks etc. I really think she should be *reading* and not figuring out all those marks and all. Looking for patterns is different-- she can do that.


I think you can just beat the thing to death with some phonics approaches.

--des


>me doubting myself constantly! I don't know for sure what method is being used at school. I know that there is a lot of decoding and symbols to go along with it, ie: crossing out silent letters, breve's, accent marks, putting blocks around same sounding consonant pairs ...clo[ck]...things like that. I thought it was Saxon, but I'm really not sure.
What do you think she REALLY should "know" at this age. She's almost 7 1/2 years old

Janis
Posted: Sat, 26 July 2003 18:46:43
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Just for the record, our school is changing to Open Court for regular ed. I wasn't wild about the Saxon "coding" as it was called, either. I certainly don't think it should be used in special ed. sicne there are programs that are designed for LD kids that would be better.

Janis

Anonymous
Posted: Mon, 28 July 2003 11:00:53
Subject:

thanks

Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply to my question! I was offline for a few days and just got the chance to read some of the later replies. So much good information, thank you again!

I think it was Janis that mentioned me being unsure about the Asperger Diagnosis. Yes, sometimes I AM unsure about it because it is an "Autistic Spectrum Disorder" and my daughter does not "seem" autistic...but, then again, she has some really different characteristics that I've never seen in any other kids...not even in her older sisters. I was wondering how severe Dyslexia could be just in case THAT was really her problem, but since she has sensory issues, mood issues, lack of or little empathy, distractibility, impulsiveness, trouble with motor control, etc, I think it is pretty safe to say that more is going on here than simply Dyslexia. I just thought that if a person has AS (Asperger's) then they would have excellent language and academic skills, and that is not the case with my daughter...although she really knows her animal facts and is very interested in learning about animals and insects.

Do any of you feel that her extreme difficulty with "smooth language" and reading problems could stem from non-stop ear infections from 7 months old until just up to last winter??? For the first three years of school she failed hearing tests in her left ear every time and had to see an audiologist and ENT for meds. I always made very sure that she went straight to the Doctor if there was ear pain, but being that she had such a high tolerance for pain, I hardly ever KNEW she had an ear infection until it had gone on for a long time. Do you know how much of her langauge problems stem from all those developing years with muffled hearing?

She really does enjoy when I read to her out of books, so right now, that is what I am doing for her as far as reading goes. I bought her a couple of little workbooks on reading for over the summer, but she hates to do the work so much that I just haven't forced her. We live in a VERY small town with a very small school district. The school is K-12 and I don't think there are even a lot of good tutoring options in town! This is overwhelming to me...reading was never a problem for me so now I just don't know how to go about helping a very unwilling child learn this extremely necessary skill!

Thanks again for all replies!

Beth from FL
Posted: Mon, 28 July 2003 16:41:36
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

You may have more than one thing going on. That is the case with my son. He has language based disabilities as well as nonverbal disabilities. He also has been diagnosed with SID and ADD-inattentive. The consensus on the language issues is that undiagnosed intermittent ear infection (high tolerance for pain too) played havac with his auditory development but that genetics played a role too. There are certain distinctive auditory weaknesses that my side of the family has--but there is noone with learning disabiliies. My son has APD and I have been told that intermittent hearing losses like my son had cause the most difficulties developmentally.

Our pediatrician referred him to a neurologist because he was concerned about Asberger's. Neurologist said no evidence of Asberger's.

Beth

Anonymous
Posted: Mon, 28 July 2003 16:48:01
Subject:

ear infections can impact auditory processing

but she has too many other quirky symptoms to ignore. Please try and get the CD I mentioned. It has the rote songs and clarity which can help her with language processing in a fun way. You can also do some stuff with earphones on, she can listen to a story on a CD/tape, kind of like the Disney story books or you can invest in Read Naturally and do it that way. Read Naturally has lots of short stories of high interest and they are by grade level.

You can work on the decoding but if she is shutting down then leave that to a tutor and just read to her and have fun with just being her mom.

Anonymous
Posted: Mon, 28 July 2003 17:09:11
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

"Sounds Like Fun"...that was the name of the CD, correct? I think you mentioned music and "clarity" which would be good for my daughter because she doesn't say letter sounds correctly all the time...I think she hears them wrong. She doesn't have a "speech" problem that I know of, she just repeats words she hears wrong on occasion, like "Plankton" from SpongeBob Squarepants comes out "Flankton". But, all of her "P" words don't come out sounding like an "F", just that one. Peacock, is Peahock. Culver's restaurant is Clovers, etc. I think her hearing, though it tests OK, is not exactly right. Anyhow...the clarity that you mentioned in the CD would be a good thing for her. Are there other Book/CD's that I can get her where she can put on headphones and hear the story and "read" the book at the same time? That simple activity sounds like a great idea! Can I get these things at Walmart? She loves music. She has her own personal CD player with headphones, too. She likes quick moving, happy songs. Thanks for all of the wonderful advice, everyone! I hadn't even thought of Books and Tapes (CD)!!

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 29 July 2003 12:03:17
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Have you thought about visual stress as pert of your daughters problems? My son is now 16 years old, and up until 2 years ago, although we knew there was a problem, there was no diagnosis or support. We are in England, and our educational system is different to yours, but an optometrist diagnosed Visual Stress in Sam using a coloured overlay test after an eye exam. He now has coloured lenses as these enable him to see what he is reading and writing...previously, he could only see a big blurry blob on the page and if he tried very hard, which gave him terrible headaches he would have to sleep off sometimes, he could focus about the size, I would think, of a 10p piece, (a dollar coin?) on the page. He was 14 years old when he was diagnosed and has made a huge improvement over the past two years. His school though, gave him no support specifically. He will start 6th form college here in September when he has received his GCSE exam results. We HOPE he gets the 33 points he needs to study Forensic Science which is his passion along side Archaeology. The 6th Form College has told us they will arrange for him to see a psychologist, but we've been here before with his High School and nothing came of it. Sam is also dyslexic and has an auditory processing disorder based in speech, also diagnosed by an English audiologist I found through an American doctor called Dr Robert Keith in Cincinnatti (sorry for the spelling!). A book I would recommend to dip in and out of, is Roadblocks to Learning by Lawrence J Greene available on Amazon. Good Luck to you and your daughter. Janet.

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 29 July 2003 12:33:28
Subject:

vision

Hi JanetM,

Thanks for the reply. I just took my daughter to the optometrist last week and he prescribed glasses for her because of astigmatism and farsightedness. He said her problems weren't bad but since she was having trouble learning to read he wanted to give her every possible support. She was very mad at the idea of glasses and would barely let me try frames on her...she doesn't want them at all.

I have not heard of the colored lenses? Interesting! Best wishes for your son and his studies!

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 29 July 2003 15:12:16
Subject:

you can try

on-line to get the books on tape from Toy's R Us, Borders, Barnes and Noble, and Read Naturally. I am not sure what they have at Wal-Mart however.

When I was doing aural reab/reading therapy with a young man yersterday I used Read Naturally. The audiologist told me that when she used Read Naturally with one of her other patients he did so much better with Read Naturally rather than just regular speech because of the enunciation and the clarity of the speech in the Read Naturally tape.

Sometimes the audio tapes you find with songs like wee sing move too fast for kids with auditory processing problems. I think your ticket with your daughter will be lots of repetition and with stories she enjoys.

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 29 July 2003 16:25:59
Subject:

Books on tape

Thanks Patti, we are fairly close to both Borders and Barnes and Noble, so I will give them a try and see what I can find! You are very right...Wee Sing, etc. moves too fast for my girl...she gets the lyrics wrong all the time! I really appreciate all the help. I may start a new topic one of these days for Asperger's and Reading, because I know that is what she has (dx'd PDD-NOS at age 4 by a developmental pediatrician in Chicago and Asperger's at age 6 by a Pediatric Psychiatrist...just wanted to make sure they weren't "wrong" and she really just had Dyslexia) and I guess it makes a difference in how she learns. Everyone is so knowledgeable here...thanks so much.

des
Posted: Tue, 29 July 2003 23:10:45
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Well I think you might question the PDD dx if there are NOT other factors than language. Here are some typical Autism spectrum characteristics:
sensory sensitivity (to light/visual stimuli; noise, touch, usually light touch, seeking of pressure, taste- dislike of many foods); social problems (significant problems forming relationships, avoidance of eye contact, doesn't understand gestures, plays with younger children or doesnt' play too well with any children); extremely strong interest in one or a couple areas (these aren't always very strange, but tends to be expert in an area esp. factually- some typical autistic spectrum interests (space, Star trek, geography or cartography, animals-- usually one specifically, trains, computers etc.)Younger kids tend to go for that train cartoon, mechanical objects, etc.; clumsiness; tends not to see himself in others shoes.

All kids won't have all these, so you look for patterns. Language difficulties
tend to be pragmatic language problems (what to say, when, saying embarassing things), some have mild articulation problems.

Dysgraphia is more common than dyslexia, but dyslexia does occur. Whether it's a separate thing that's another question.

Kids on the autistic spectrum CAN do well later, provided they get support, understanding, and maybe a bit of luck.

HTH,

--des


marycas
Posted: Wed, 30 July 2003 09:01:26
Subject:

great thread

im coming in late here, but I can identify totally with Debras situation

I always find it interesting that so many of these kids have things in common. I had not know Beths son had been checked for Aspergers but, again, it just seems like one more of those similarities

My now 11 yr old son had an undiagnosed hearing loss until almost 4. My understanding was it was the way his tubes were shaped(never drained from say a quick production of fluid from walking in a room with dust) but I also know he has a high pain tolerance so perhaps he was having infections(I had not made that connection till today)

I believe it has a major impact. I think these kids somehow go to a different part of their brain to compensate and that impacts their learning later on.

"Right brained children in a left brained world" is one of my favorites. the author draws a line which represents left brain to right brain progression. Extreme right brain is autism(its the end of the line) and dyslexia and aspergers are on that same side of the middle, just not as far down the path. Extreme left brain is, I think, schizophrenia(but I could be wrong-it was irrelevant to my son)

That model has always impressed me. Its just another way of thinking of "the spectrum" , but it actually puts dyslexia ON the spectrum

He also mentions how ear problems can cause a child to become right brained(Im putting it simplY here)

My son has been dx'd ADDinattentive; both Aspergers and CAPD have been suggested by professionals who work with him. He is VERY empathetic so I doubt the Aspergers but I certainly have seen enough characteristics to understand where this possibility came from. The CAPD? Very possible IMO. When I read about dyslexia, it is very much like my son as well.

We are doing Sound REading and had done some Phonographix last summer. We are homeschooling for the first time Aug 27 and will go back to review multisyllables in Phonographix and do some workbooks with multisyllables as well(megawords).

But, I continue to see the same things regardless of which approach we use. His reading tutor used many approaches inclduing LIPS. Sound Reading incorporates many of these methods briefly as well. He can learn to decode in context-he has actually had so mcuh decoding he now tests quite well in that area. But he will NOT apply it to his reading. Its race and guess

Of course this was allowed in school(who had the time to look over his shoulder?)and I hope its a habit i can break this fall. But I do sometimes wonder if many kids who think in pictures just arent going to 'get it'.

Your little one is far younger, though, and I would certainly give decoding a good hard try

I have heard wonderful things about books on tape. After all, these kids have missed so much over the years. First they couldnt hear and then they perhaps retreat into themselves(because they couldnt hear or comprehend)and they miss even more. It can become an immersion into language for them

My problem? I worry my son will simply zone out. He admits he cant enjoy music because he cant stay focused on it. He cannot sing even the simplest of songs at age 11. So, whats to stop him from walking around(or sitting around) with headphones on but thinking about legos?

I found a site that asks 6-10 comprehension questions about over 5000 books. Part of our homeschooling day is going to be listening to books on tape and then answering the questions(ideally Id let him read the questions first but as soon as you log off and come back, the questions change)

bookadventure.org

Good luck

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 30 July 2003 10:26:58
Subject:

remembering lyrics...etc

Thanks for the replies...I am overwhelmed and I am sure to really look into all suggestions! Marycas...my daughter never could and still can't remember and repeat even simple little nursury rhymes and songs completely! That always amazed me and was one of the things that clued me in to problems...you know, can't sing all the words to Mary Had a little Lamb or even her nighttime prayer even though it was repeated every night. She can get SOME of the lyrics to well known songs...but not all of them. I don't believe she has ever sung (sang?) a complete song to me yet! I think she has short term memory problems.

Here, I missed the perfect opportunity over this summer to really help her because she commutes with me 3 days a week, 45 mins each way and we could have gotten some CD/read along books for the car rides! I just hadn't thought of that...I don't know why...so simple and such a good idea. In the car she listens to music and hums...she doesn't converse much with me unless she is answering a direct question. When I ask her questions, she gets upset anyway. Questions like "Did you go to the library (during day camp) before or after lunch?"....she will say "I don't know!". If I say "Do you know what before means?"...she will say "I don't know!!! I don't want to talk about it!!!". That's how our conversations usually go, unless she is telling me something she wants to tell me...an THAT is usually jumbled up and I have to use a lot of "detective work" to figure out the whole story!

Sorry to ramble...my daughter is an enigma to me. Thanks for all of the help everyone!

des
Posted: Wed, 30 July 2003 13:51:04
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Here's a couple useful webpages. Might help.
This one on Aspergers but has related disorder page:
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

That's the OASIS page. Really good page, imo.

I don't know much about this one but you might look at a CAPD page as well. I don't know how this ranks as a page:
http://pages.cthome.net/cbristol/capd.html


HTH,

--des

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 30 July 2003 14:05:09
Subject:

Thanks...

Thanks for the links!

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 30 July 2003 22:31:01
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Debbie,

Couldn't help but relate to songs and nursery rhymes. My daughter is the same way. Also hypersensitivity to light and sound and very sensitive nerve endings in her fingers. NOT AS, has great social skills, etc.

She can't remember words to songs - but does better in a group. Always has told me, "Well that's the way YOUR song goes, but MY song goes like this".

BTW, she has APD, VPD SI dysfunction, dyslexia and ADD. You name it, we got it - except she has great self esteem and great social skills. Of, I forgot, also fine and gross motor skill problems (dysgraphia and motor planning problems.

They all overlap. Find out the problems and just try to help him with each particular need.

des
Posted: Thu, 31 July 2003 02:05:03
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I agree with Leah, real kids are not necessarily going to fit neatly in the diagnoses as they are more constructs to explain a group of common characteristics and behaviors.

For myself, I have a bit better social skills than the average AS person, very neat handwriting (though I tend to print), and no amt of hyperactivity. But you can figure out what the deficits are and work on/accommodate those. Or live with/ understand them as the case may be. Few people will fit in everything neatly, but it helps to understand some common characteristics, imo.


As I think a no. of us said in a CAPD thread, there are no blood tests. And I doubt there ever will be.

--des

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 31 July 2003 10:16:09
Subject:

thanks!

Like I said before...all of the replies and support are so wonderful and helpful to me...thank you all!

My daughter has so-so social skills...she likes to play with her 1 friend, but only horses or dogs...animal play or searching for nature or climbing trees...never, ever dolls (no Barbies or baby dolls) or organized games. Also, there was a group of neighbor kids riding their bikes around a circular drive, just having a ball, and I told my daughter "Why don't you ride your bike with the other kids?" and she said (this is so typical of a response from her!) anyway, she said "I don't want to ride my bike with that HERD of kids!!!!!". Also, leaving daycamp a few days ago, a little girl said "Good bye, R" and my daughter didn't reply, so I said "Did you hear that girl say goodbye?" and R said "Yeah...I wanna show you how I can do the monkey bars" I said "That was nice of that little girl to say BYE to you...what's her name?" and R said "I don't know." I said " You don't know her name? Is she your friend?" and R said " I don't know I think it's Aubrey or Clarissa or something...I wanna show you the monkey bars." Of course, whoever this other little girl was, she spends ALL day with my daughter at day camp and still my daughter doesn't know her name or care to know her name! So, that is kinda how her social skills go...not horrible, but not normal either.

Thanks so much for all the support!

Lil
Posted: Thu, 31 July 2003 10:55:20
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Hi Debra,

I just read this thread for the first time. My son is 10 (almost 11) and has diagnoses of auditory processing disorder (APD), visual processing disorder (VPD), inattentive ADHD, anxiety, and non-verbal learning disorder NLD). It is written (and sometimes disputed) that NLD is on the autism spectrum - sort of a first or second cousin to Asperger's. He takes Methylin (Ritalin type drug) for his ADHD, and Wellbutrin for the anxiety.

I have been through everything with my son that most parents here have been through - sensory integration problems, poor fine and gross motor skills, poor social skills, good rote memory but poor understanding, etc. Most kids with NLD are good readers/spellers, but with my son's comorbid APD, he has a lot of trouble with that. He has an excellent sight vocabulary, but is an extremely poor decoder. He truly can't hear the differences between some sounds in the English language and that has hampered his decoding skills greatly. He is also a terrible speller - not even close to phonetic. He also has a lot of meltdowns when asked to read. I've kind of let that go over this summer, and am just letting him chill out. He has become extremely resistant to my "interference" in his life and has asked me to "Butt Out!" Not that I will, mind you. :-) But we are taking a break.

I used Phono-Graphix (Reading Reflex) with him last summer, and am taking him to their clinic for a one week intensive this summer. He did Earobics at school to help train his brain to listen better. I have seen some positive points from that. We are doing Home Vision Therapy this summer, and I'm not sure I've seen too many improvements from that, but I think he needs more time with it.

There are a couple of points to all this.

If you are unsure about the Asperger's diagnosis, you might look into NLD. Try NLDontheWeb.org and NLDLine.com for a couple of places to start reading.

If your daughter had ear infections for so long, with hearing loss in one ear, she more than likely will be diagnosed with APD. I did see benefit from my son doing Earobics (earobics.com), and it can be done at home, with a computer, for $59. He did it twice a day, for 20 minutes a time, five days a week. That is more intensive than the Earobics minimum, but I think that's why it possibly worked so well. There are also classroom interventions that can be tried to help your daughter cope with the APD - preferential seating, appropriate classroom acoustics, the teacher always faces your daughter when speaking, perhaps even an FM system. Some people will recommend FastForWord, but it is extremely expensive and intensive and I wanted to try Earobics, and then move to FastForWord if I thought my son needed it.

My son has a rough time remembering names, too (as does my husband). I think that is the APD kicking in. She hasn't heard it clearly and it is too much work to remember it. Only when my son sees a classmates name in print and has heard it several times will he remember it. He also plays well with one child, but put him in a group, and he seperates himself after about 20 minutes. The noise is just too much for him, and with lots of kids talking at once he can't keep up. Then he gets anxious which translates to anger, and then he blows inappropriately (to his peers) and they think he's strange. It's a real vicious circle.

Ah well, I've certainly gone on long enough. Phono-Graphix is great as Janis said. Try to find someone to use it with your daughter. It is a very easy program to learn to use. Look at the Earobics and see what you think. I hope the glasses do what you want them to do. My son had glasses for a while but refused to wear them, so now we are doing the vision therapy.

It's never easy. But it is all worth it in the long run.

Lil

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 31 July 2003 15:21:24
Subject:

thanks

Thanks for the reply and info Lil!

Just curious...where does one get a child tested for these other disorders, for example NLD or APD. Does insurance pay for these tests or are they out of pocket expenses for the parents? The doctors have only been concerned with PDD/Asperger's/ADD and the like.

Lil
Posted: Thu, 31 July 2003 18:26:23
Subject:

You're welcome! :-)

Hi again,

I had my son tested by an audiologist for the APD. Our health insurance company paid for it. The NLD was harder. I paid myself for a full range of psycho-social-medical-educational testing at one clinic supported by the state - so it wasn't too expensive. They used the WISC-III for IQ, the BASC for emotional, the Bender Visual-Gestalt for eye-hand (all psychological) and then the Woodcock Johnson-III for the educational.

In their report, they gave me very specific things my son needs to work on. It was only nine months and tons of research later that I realized my son fit the NLD profile (visual processing, anxiety, poor social skills, good rote memorization - but some trouble with understanding; among other things). I found an assessment at the NLD on the Web site, and my son fit 100% of the profile. (I was resistant to that diagnosis because almost everything I read said there had to be a large split between Verbal IQ and Performance IQ on the WISC-III test, and my son didn't have that. I have since discovered that only about 41% of people diagnosed with NLD actually have that large split.)

So I called the center who did the testing, and spoke with the psychologist who did it. He said my son DID have NLD, but that diagnosis was obviously less specific than his recommendations. And it is. However, there are many good websites and books on the subject that helped me understand my son better, and work with him more appropriately. So getting the "label" was a good thing for him.

I've run it by the school (with a letter from the psychologist) and they really don't know how to deal with it. But, I bought extra copies of the books and provided the school with those. I'm not sure if anyone read them, but if they did the information was good and surely helped them help my son. Those books and websites have also helped me understand what needs to be written into my son's IEP.

Lil

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 14:42:33
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Debra,

I am new to these boards but I thought I would post. I have two children who have been on the Autism Spectrum and a niece on the spectrum. I have taught all of them to read phonetically. As I have other children on the spectrum.

A very high proportion of children on the Autism spectrum have some form of ADP/CAPD, SI, auditory and or short term memory, vision, cognitive sequencing problems along with various language delays. All of these issues can and do lead to some form of dyslexia.

Many children on the spectrum acquire language in a gestalt manner called delayed echolalia. Delayed Echolalia is a sort of Berlitz type of second language method used to acquire ones mother tongue with visual being the child's first language. A child who uses delayed echolalia will not be able to break down a poem, nursery rhyme, phrase, sentence, ect.... by it parts. They may learn with ease songs, poems, nursery rhymes, ect... Just like I can learn phrases in German from a tape to use when I visit Germany.

Some children will have what seems like wonderful language skills but will unknown to their parents be acquiring those skills in the above manner. If a child is using delayed echolalia they will not be able to break words down by their phonemes unless they are taught or had therapy to help them do so. Reading phonetically can not happen until this skills is developed.

They only way to tell if you daughter has used or is using delayed echolalia to gain language is to have a SLP who is an expert in autism and delayed echolalia do an assessment with your child. I had no idea that one of my sons was using this method until our SLP trained me on what to look for.

FastForWord is a program that has helped many children on the spectrum develop the ability to hear phonemes. I know that my sons and my niece would not have learned to read phonetically with out FFW therapy. In the Chicago area there is a good audiologist named Dr.Jeanne Farre who works with kids on the spectrum and can test for the forms of CAPD that can be remediated by FFW.

I am trained in PG and will later this year take LIPS and V/V training too. I have not found another program that works as well as PG when teaching reading to children on the Autism spectrum. All of the kids I work with tho have need more AP work than what PG has built into the program and there have been a few moderate to low functioning children with Autism that after assessing I had not taken on as clients do to the severity of their AP hence my desire to get LIPS training. Right now I create my own AP tracking lessons to use once a child has worked through all of the AP activities that PG contains. So far all of my students are either children on the spectrum or family member of those children.

My advice would be to have a FastForWord work up done. After that I would recommend reading the book Reading Reflex. If you do not think you can work with your child look for a PG therapist near you. I know that there are a few in the Chicago area.

Hope this helps and made sense :?

Rebecca

Anonymous
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 16:39:14
Subject:

reading

Hi Rebecca,

Thanks for your reply! I think some of what you said made very good sense! Some of it, I must confess, I didn't understand! :oops: What is LIPS? I've read that many times here, but I don't know what it means.

When my daughter learned to talk she copied everything I said, verbatim. For example...one time she came to me with her empty cup and I said "Looks like it's empty." and then I took her into the kitchen to pour her a drink. After that, everytime she wanted a drink she would bring me her cup and say "Looks like it's empty.". That is the way she learned to talk...in "copied" phrases. The more phrases she learned the more she could converse until, finally, she passed for "normal" in a conversation (not very fluent, though). Does this describe the type of learning pattern that you mentioned, Rebecca?
Very interesting reply...thanks again!

Anonymous
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 17:26:33
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Rebecca, now you make ME wonder if my daughter is on th spectrum. (Not htat it matters, she's now reading above grade level, writes well, and is in the process of overcoming her disabilities)

It sounds like you are saying that kids who have all these characteristics are on the Autism Spectrum which LEADS to dyslexia? Is that what I'm understanding you are saying?

I believe(d) AS and Dyslexia are/were completely different. Though in the Out of Sync Child, Carol Kranowitz discusses how SI can lead to LDs.

My daughter has "global LDs" High performance, lower verbal, but has great social skills (a little bossyas a 5-7 year old) and NO anxiety. She is a puzzle. Has all the deficits of VLD and NVLD.

As for bike riding, she had all the girls in the neighborhood convinced "Bikes are a 'boy thing'." b/c she couldn't ride. :0)

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 18:09:36
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Quote:

everytime she wanted a drink she would bring me her cup and say "Looks like it's empty.". That is the way she learned to talk...in "copied" phrases.

That is exactly what delayed echolalia is. As the child grows the phrases will be used in a more appropriate manner and will become more sophisticated. Sometimes to the point where a non SLP (Speech and Language Pathologist) will have no idea that the person is using delayed echolalia to communicate.

Just as the words in the phrase, "Looks like it's empty." could not be manipulated to say, "It looks empty." Many folks who used delayed echolalia can not manipulate the phonemes in a word or even pull the word apart by phoneme. The word cat is the chunk cat unless a lot of AP work is done and only then can the person segement the word cat as /k/.../a/..../t/.

FFW is the quickest way to remediate if the CAPD issues are there and they almost always are when delayed echolalia is present. LindamoodBell therapy is another more expensive and much longer way to work on AP skills. LIPS is a intensive therapy/reading program program that would be received at a LindamoodBell therapy center to work on severe AP and reading skills.

We chose to go the FFW PG route because it was the quickest and most logical way to go. My oldest son made an 18 month language gain with 9 weeks of FFW and my youngest son ended FFW with language skills a year above his age level. That written PG would not have worked if we had not done FFW first.

There are two LindamoodBell centers in the Chicago land area. If I understand it right PG and LindamoodBell are from the same school of thought. The gals who developed and wrote LIPS and V/V were students of Dr. Diane McGuinness as were Carmen and Geoffrey (Diane's son) McGuinness who wrote RR and developed PG. PG and LIPS hold common elements however LIPS is for a child with severe AP problems and takes a long time to implement and is very intensive. LIPS therpay in the Chicago area is around $50 to $70 an hour and a lot of kids will need 2 to 3 sessions a week for 24 or more weeks depending on the severity of the LD issues. For us it was cost and time effective to go the FFW and PG route.

Hope that made sense and helps :?

Rebecca

Janis
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 18:16:15
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

That is very interesting, Rebecca. Wonderful to hear your great results with FFW and PG!

Incidentally, both Carmen and Phyllis Lindamood (daughter of author of LiPS) were students of Diane McGuinness, and I believe Carmen was trained in LiPS prior to developing PG.

Janis

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 18:34:37
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Leah,

No I am not saying

Quote:

It sounds like you are saying that kids who have all these characteristics are on the Autism Spectrum which LEADS to dyslexia? Is that what I'm understanding you are saying?

What I am saying is all of these things are common to or can be part of Autism and all of these things are understood to be underlying causes of Dyslexia. What I am saying is, You can be Dyslexic and not be Autistic but it is rare that an Autistic child is not Dyslexic. or Dyslexia is almost always a part of Autism

Even the Autistic children who are Hyperlexic will often have severe comprehension problems, while they can decode/read (sometimes at college level) they can not comprehen or have very poor comprehension of what they have read. If you can not comprehen what you read then I would think it is safe to say you are Dyslexic and that is what NeuroPsychologist seem to think.

All of that written most cases of Dyslexia can be remediated with the right type of therapy or therapies. It is easier to remediate a person who is just Dyslexic but harder to work with a person who is both Dyslexic and Autistic. The Autism spectrum brings a bag of behaviors and other issues with it that can slow down remediation. Autism also usually signals that any LD issues present (and there are always LD issues present with Autism) are more severe than in the general LD population.

Hope all of that made sense :?

Rebecca

pattim
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 20:12:51
Subject:

language is learned through modeling for kids with Autism

But as an SLP, I have seen the whole gamut.the key is that they have to have the cognition in order to intentionally communicate with Echolalia. To make sense of the Alphabetic principle and phonological processing takes a considerable amount of cognition as well.

SLP's have to train the children with autism to use language to INTENTIONALLY communicate their basic wants and needs. They still have issues even in using a picture exchange system, some can be very verbal but in their own little world, they talk in rote phrases which they have heard, some are like little tape recorders with their precise duplication of videos and songs, but they have no idea that words are used to communicate unless they have the cognition and modelling to use language for communication.

I spent weeks trying to get a 5 year old to pick up one card and give it to me INTENTIONALLY. We even had two SLP's working one moving his hand toward the card and then moving it to the other SLP to get him to communicate that he wanted us to blow bubbles, or give him a toy. He didn't have the cognition necessary to intentionally give us the card, he would chew it but he didn't use the card for communicative intent.

Now he would drop the card willy nilly and if I just happened to have my hand under his when the let go of the card does that mean that he INTENTIONALLY communicated his needs and wants? NO...he just dropped something inattentively out of his hands, like throwing a piece of trash on the floor. Whereas children with higher cognition, will pick up right away that if they pick up the card and intentionally give it to the caregiver they will get a reward. There is a difference in all these kids language usage. Teaching them the negative NOT, is really difficult.

For instance you ask a child to show you a shoe and they show you a shoe, and then you put another object on the table and say "show me the one that is NOT a shoe, they will point out the shoe, because it is the last thing they heard, NOT is meaningless to some kids with autism. We have to constantly think outside of the box when treating any children with autism.

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Mon, 04 August 2003 21:34:47
Subject:

Re: language is learned through modeling for kids with Autis

Quote pattim:

But as an SLP, I have seen the whole gamut.the key is that they have to have the cognition in order to intentionally communicate with Echolalia. To make sense of the Alphabetic principle and phonological processing takes a considerable amount of cognition as well.

I think that is one reason why Autism is a spectrum disorder. My oldest son at age 4 was mute with little cognition but with medical treatment he has gained language, cognition and is developing at a normal rate executive function. It took me being guided once a quarter or so by an SLP 6 months to teach him the concept of less than. SLP thought he would never grasp the concept and at times I thought so too. I could ask show me more and he had no problem pointing out more but ask show me less and nothing but a blank look. I do not remember teaching not :? There is not a day that goes by that I am not thankful for Depakote and the medical treatment my boys recieved. Now it is on to the concept of multiplication :roll:

The kids I work with in teaching reading have good cognition and some even have good executive function and some have non verbal IQs well into the gifted and highly gifted range but even with that they struggle with learning to read. I am not sure there is even a box when it comes to Autism. I think and I am writing as a mother, an aunt, a home schooler, and a teacher that Autism calls for a fresh look and approach with every child who has the dx. I have yet to meet or work with an Autistic child who fit any autistic stereo type. They are each unique with unique gifts, and delays, and idiosyncrasies :? with their own unique spot on the spectrum defined by them. I have come to like and to relish the challenge of teaching Autistic children.

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 07:43:54
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Gosh, this is FASCINATING. Of course, I'm just a mom. I would love to have the $$$ to go back to school and study all of this.

Rebecca thanks for the clarification. I've learned that sometimes what someone is saying is NOT what's I'M getting (learned that after 26 yrs of marriage ;-)


When I look at my own daughter, she couldn't read, but as you mentioned in your last post had gifted non-verbal. Also executive function problems "were not even on the curve" according to the OT. SHe told me the fact that she could ride a bike at 8.5 was a "miracle"
All the really ASpectrum beh. she "outgrew" (that's what I called it). I remember telling the OT "she used to do that" alot on her 1st evaluation. OT also said the gymnastics we did at 4 was the cheapest OT we ever got.

We did the slow, more expensive, SI OT and LMB. (of course that's what the evaluator told us we needed). I would be very interested to know if your "therapies" would have gained us the same result. I can't complain, she is doing very well. Of course, we are STILL working on those multisyllabic words. ..

Again, thanks for the clarification. You must do a wonderful job with your kids.

PT
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 09:04:25
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

<<Even the Autistic children who are Hyperlexic will often have severe comprehension problems, while they can decode/read (sometimes at college level) they can not comprehen or have very poor comprehension of what they have read. If you can not comprehen what you read then I would think it is safe to say you are Dyslexic and that is what NeuroPsychologist seem to think.>>

Hi Rebecca,

I have enjoyed your posts but have to disagree with you that if you can't comprehend what you read, you are automatically dyslexic. As an FYI, I have NLD/ADHD and goodness knows what else.

Most people with NLD have comprehension problems when reading but are definitely not dyslexic. Of course, there are exceptions.

Also, if I remember correctly, Sally Shaywitz, in her book on Dyslexia, stated that the core problem of most people with Dyslexia is a basic problem with phonological processing. Their comprehension usually is excellent. She went on to say that people who have both difficulties with decoding and comprehension have language learning disabilities.

Perhaps you were talking about people who because of decoding difficulties, can't comprehend what they read. If that is the case, then in my opinion, what you or the neuropsychologist is saying, makes sense.

The reason why I find your posts fascinating is I possibly have LDs not commonly associated with NLD. The neuropsychologist who diagnosed me with NLD thought I had minor dyslexia but I am wondering if it isn't CAPD. No matter what it is, in my opinion, when you read the literature on NLD, you get the feeling that nothing else exists when a person is diagnosed with NLD. In all fairness, it seems that to date, that's true of alot of NLDers but it is like folks like me don't seem to exist. Lil, who posted on this thread, is in similar situation with her son.

PT

Beth from FL
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 10:17:48
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

PT,

I would say that APD/CAPD can be an underlying cause of dyslexia so you both could be right. I think there is a huge overlap. A lot of people with auditory processing disorders have trouble reading. But auditory processing disorders are not the only cause of reading difficulties. And, some, although I suspect a minority, of people with auditory processing disorders had no trouble learning to read.

Beth

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 12:52:52
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

HI PT,

The sub-group of Autistic kids that I was writing about have something called Hyperlexia. Some of these kids only use language when they read but many of them have absolutely no idea what they have read and use spoken language at no other time. So they are mute or use vocal ticks until they pass a street sign will read the street and go back to being mute or using vocal ticks. With some of these kids you could hold up a card that said, "I want a drink" the child will read a loud the card but never make the jump that they could use that card to get a drink when they are thirsty. They may also never understand that what the words mean that they have read. Kind of like me reading German, or Spainish, or Arabic street signs when I was out of the country in the AirForce or going to college abroad. I could sometimes read aloud the signs but never understood what I was reading. The words I read aloud from those street signs were for all intent and purpose non sense words.

I doubt that Sally Shaywitz has ever seen a child like that so I would not expect to find anything about Hyperlexia in her book. Even in the Autistic population it is thought by some to be rare so I doubt a researcher not working in the field of Autism would know anything about it. Leave it to Autism to redefine just what dyslexia is :roll:

Like with everything Autistic there is a spectrum and comprehension varies with the kids who are Hyperlexic, their age, and any speech therapy they have had. I have been at IEP meetings where these type of kids have had dyslexia written on their IEP due to the fact that they have little or no comprehension of what they have read by an independent outside nueropysch. This was so the school understood that yes they can read but they have no idea what they are reading.

There is a group of SLPs that specialize in Hyperlexic kids in the Chicago area here is their web addy http://www.csld.com/publications.html Take a look under their publications and you will find a few on the subject of Hyperlexia.

Rebecca

des
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 13:03:11
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Quote PT:

<<Even the Autistic children who are Hyperlexic will often have severe comprehension problems, while they can decode/read (sometimes at college level).. I would think it is safe to say you are Dyslexic and that is what NeuroPsychologist seem to think.>>

Quote PT:


>I have enjoyed your posts but have to disagree with you that if you can't comprehend what you read, you are automatically dyslexic.

Quote PT:

PT, Rebecca, I sure missed this. But I disagree as well. I also disagree with someone who said a child can "outgrow" AS or some other autism spectrum disorder.

Quote PT:

As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.
It would be a strange dylexia, someone who could read say a college level nonfiction textbook but have trouble with a trash fiction novel.

Quote PT:

As for outgrowing, it is true that you can remediate some aspects of ASD (like some of the SI problems), and that the child can learn more social skills. But as even in my 50s (and you will just naturally learn more by then) there are many times I do or say things that can only be thought of as autistic. IN fact I have decided that there are good sides to autism.

Quote PT:

The following is an article written by an autistic person, and explores this topic. Warning: some parents do NOT like this.
http://web.syr.edu/~jisincla/dontmourn.htm

Quote PT:

--des

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 13:21:51
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Quote Leah-FL:

Quote Leah-FL:

We did the slow, more expensive, SI OT and LMB. (of course that's what the evaluator told us we needed). I would be very interested to know if your "therapies" would have gained us the same result. I can't complain, she is doing very well. Of course, we are STILL working on those multisyllabic words. ..

Quote Leah-FL:

Again, thanks for the clarification. You must do a wonderful job with your kids.


Once insurance saw the dx Autism they stopped paying for OT, Speech, ect...... They did pay for medical treatment because it was dxed as Landau-Kleffner. We live in a bad school district for special needs kids. To get them to provide anything means a trip to court. School can afford to be taken to court in my neck of the woods because they carry litigation insurance. So taking an IL school district to court usally does little but great greater levels of stress for the parents while the school does nothing more for the child.

Anybody who has an autistic child under the age of 5 or 6 knows that stress is high. What we decided was to home school for many reason the chief being that my son was bolting from the building and spinning in the middle of a major street. The school was under staffed and the district was on bankruptcy watch so they had no money for picture cards or curriculum or aids at that time to work with an autistic 3 year old.

Therapy meant once a quarter I took my sons to an OT or SLP for an eval and then the OT or SLP trained me on how to work with my sons and helped me buy curriculum and equipment. So in our garage is a balance beam ect....I have tons of photo cards with which I taught language in my basement. I am not an SLP or OT but I did an OK job for my boys because that was the only choice we had.

We were lucky in that our sons had an underlying medical cause for their autism and they responded and tolerated the meds that treat Landau-Kleffner. Any body who wants to know more about the connection between autism and LKS here is a link to a few peer review studies done by our Neurologist, http://www.neurologychannel.com/pediatricneuro/articles.shtml

The only other therapy that we paid out for but again done at home with me was FastForWord.

I often need things spelled out for me too :oops: Congrads on 26 years of marriage! We have only been married 14 years but still sometimes I think I need and interpreter :?

Rebecca

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 13:57:08
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

I have the "dyslexic" who has wonderful reading comprehension. After 1 year of LMB she went up 7 pts. in comprehension (I thought that was great). B/c she is gifted, she oftentimes will be unable to decode large words, but still gets the "gist" of the context.

She'll be reading and when she she says proceed unstead of process, I get all confused. But then when she gets done she can tell me what the paragraph said. Me? I miss a word and I'm out of luck :0)

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 14:29:39
Subject:

Folks like me don't seem to exist.

Folks like my son don't exist either. He has severe non verbal issues with a performance IQ of 89. His visual motor problems were quite severe. Yet, he does well socially and understands absolutely everything.

He has difficulty with writing, math, and had trouble with reading initially until I explicitely taught him to read with phonographix.


I think it is a mistake to try to fit all children/people into the boxes that exist. My son was labeled nld but he just isn't. It was assumed that he didn't really understand but was just parroting something he heard. This is just not the case and if they really looked at his social abilities they could have discerned that. It was really devastating to have that label in school because with that label comes some very low expectations. It was confusing to my son because he wondered why they talked to him like he didn't understand when he did understand but couldn't always demonstrate his understanding in writing.

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 14:33:38
Subject:

Hyperlexia and being 50?

Quote des:

Quote des:

PT, Rebecca, I sure missed this. But I disagree as well. I also disagree with someone who said a child can "outgrow" AS or some other autism spectrum disorder.

Quote des:

As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.
It would be a strange dylexia, someone who could read say a college level nonfiction textbook but have trouble with a trash fiction novel.

Des, I think that I was posting at the same time you were just what Hyperlexia is. Please read that post. These kids have no comprehension they read what is to them non sense words a loud. So the trash fiction is equally nonsense as is the nonfiction text.


Quote des:


As for outgrowing, it is true that you can remediate some aspects of ASD (like some of the SI problems), and that the child can learn more social skills. But as even in my 50s (and you will just naturally learn more by then) there are many times I do or say things that can only be thought of as autistic. IN fact I have decided that there are good sides to autism.

Quote des:

The following is an article written by an autistic person, and explores this topic. Warning: some parents do NOT like this.
http://web.syr.edu/~jisincla/dontmourn.htm

Quote des:

--des

Des I am nearly 50 so I am not sure just what point you are making here. Is it that experiential learning can be more than book learning? If so give or take a year I do not think when I turn 50 in a year or so all of the sudden I will know more.

If you are saying you are autistic and that there are good things that go with being autistic and in your 50s you have come to terms with that I say great! You and the folks who wrote that article have an edge that lots of autistic folks do not. That edge is good executive function which allows you the quarks and gifts of autism without those quarks controlling your life and robbing you of the gifts.

Here is a bit from my experiential learning that I got in my teens. I used to visit my uncle who was in his late 50s at the time. They were not nice visits. You see he lived in all most all of his life in a state mental hospital mute, rocking or in a fetal position. He was autistic although he did not have the offical dx being born in the 1920s and with out the executive function in place to live out side in the real world. With out the skills to tell his family if he was being well taken care of or abused.

I agree that one can not out grow or totally remediate autism but I do know through experiential learning and through the reading of peer review journals that some causes of some forms of Autism can be cured with medical treatment. Please take a look at the article page from my sons Neurologist I posted in a prior post in this thread.

I have video of my son at 12 and 24 months that show a child with advanced language skills playing in a normal manner, peek-a-boo, pretend with his telephone, ect.... That same child between 2 and 3 lost all language and at 3.5 was autistic. LKS was the underlying medical cause and it hit my son between 2 and 3 not at birth. So in my experience one can be born normal but with a genetic predisposition toward autism develop normally and then become autistic and then respond to medical treatment that stops the brain antibodies and seizures causing the autism and return to normal (what ever that is.)

A really good laymens book on the gifts that go along with many DSMV IV disorders in Shadow Syndromes by Dr. John Ratey.

I trust that you are not saying that when I am in my 50s in a couple of years I will learn to lose all hope and accept things as they are I say there is just too much momma bear in me along with the brand of what I saw in my uncles life.

Rebecca

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 05 August 2003 18:31:06
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

And regarding the "outgrowing" of her spectrum problems - it was purely spectrum problems, or SID, not autism.

For example, as a young child (she started OT when she was 7-1/2) she would "pitch a fit" b/c the seam in her socks drove her crazy. Me, being ignorant, would say, "Put ON those socks and when you grow up and get rich, you can buy custom made socks, but until then PUT THEM ON" (I know, I know :oops: )

I would go into her room and turn on the CLOSET light. She would scream like an animal about how it was too bright, etc., etc. I'm talking screaming, hands over her eyes, until I turned off the light (for most people this would NOT be a problem)

Those are the only 2 things I can think of "off the top of my head". Oh she also, when she had friends over, would sometimes put her hands over her ears and YELL "Stop talking - You're talking too much/loud, etc."

She also covered 1 eye when she read (tried) in 1st and 2nd grade.

I can't tell you the times I punished her and sent her friends home and told her she was NEVER going to have friends b/c she was SO rude.

(Now Give me a break - I knew NOTHING about LDs, SID, etc. )- I thought she was the rudest, most obstinate, obnoxious child in the world.
She was Always in control, in charge and everyone followed HER.

"My way or the highway". It wasn't until the end of K-5 that I knew something was really wrong. I spent all of K5 and 1st asking the school who said she was "developmentally delayed". (?)

She was also my child (4ish) who would say, "Hand me one of those things in the bowl" I would say "What is it?". "That, red thing in the bowl, with the peel and it has seeds inside". "What IS it?" "Mom, I want to see if YOU know". I would say "An apple". SHe would clap and say "Good job, mom". (Hello? I honestly didn't have a clue that meant word retrieval problems.)

I know I have digressed, but I'll never forget meeting the SI OT and spending 30 minutes with her. Everything started to "make sense". She handed me "Your Out of Sync Child". I read it x2. I then realized I had a child who was overstimulated and trying to make sense out of a world that didn't.

Light still bothers her a little, Noise, a little. Socks and clothes don't. She is never rude with her friends and has lots of them (Still the BOSS :) )

THAT's what I meant by "outgrowing" her SID. Whether it was the SI OT, maturity, etc., I have no idea. All I know is she makes good grades, is definitely dyslexic and has a wonderful self esteem. You can try to put the puzzle together - I've ALMOST given up trying. :-)She is one AWESOME kiddo. - Labels are a way to services. Nothing more, nothing less - that's how I view it JMHO.

des
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 01:46:38
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

>PT, Rebecca, I sure missed this. But I disagree as well. I also disagree >with someone who said a child can "outgrow" AS or some other autism spectrum disorder.

Leah clarified this, she means the SI problems, this is true to some extent. I think the SI problems decrease with age and with SI therapy.


>As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.
It would be a strange dylexia, someone who could read say a college level nonfiction textbook but have trouble with a trash fiction novel.[/QUOTE]

>Des, I think that I was posting at the same time you were just what Hyperlexia is. Please read that post. These kids have no comprehension they read what is to them non sense words a loud. So the trash fiction is equally nonsense as is the nonfiction text.

I know about hyperlexia. But not all hyperlexic kids have 0 comprehension. Sometimes they have some or the nonfiction only type thing. I still don't think this is dyslexia, it is hyperlexia. I have to agree that most people haven't seen this. I know of a couple kids. One of the kids I knew had no verbal language. But she read and she could read signs that her mom wrote. There were signs all over the house on what to do in certain situations. There was even a sign in the bathroom detailing how to use the bathroom correctly.
:-)


>Des I am nearly 50 so I am not sure just what point you are making here. Is it that experiential learning can be more than book learning? If so give or take a year I do not think when I turn 50 in a year or so all of the sudden I will know more.

No, just that you can't outgrow even mild autism. That even at age 50 you will still have some traits and so on.


>If you are saying you are autistic and that there are good things that go with being autistic and in your 50s you have come to terms with that I say great! You and the folks who wrote that article have an edge that lots of autistic folks do not. That edge is good executive function which allows you the quarks and gifts of autism without those quarks controlling your life and robbing you of the gifts.


Well yes, there are severe cases of autism. I was commenting more on the mild versions that we see more on this list. This list isn't primarily for people with severe autism. I think they would post elsewhere.
I can't speak really personally about that.


>journals that some causes of some forms of Autism can be cured with medical treatment. Please take a look at the article page from my sons Neurologist I posted in a prior post in this thread.


Yes, LKS, that is treatable. It is prolly about the only form of autism that is pretty treatable. It is also rare. I am familar with this, though not personally.

A>I trust that you are not saying that when I am in my 50s in a couple of years I will learn to lose all hope and accept things as they are I say there is just too much momma bear in me along with the brand of what I saw in my uncles life.


No no not at all. Just that if you have some disability even if it is mild then you will still have traits of it all your life. It isn't a statement about giving up all hope and all that sort of thing. I never implied that.

Of course, also it should be pointed out that things are a bit different even for severe autism than they were when your uncle was young. He no doubt had no treatment or education or any therapy of any kind. Today there is early intervention, ABA, SI and other treatments.


>Rebecca

--des

PT
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 06:55:57
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Quote Beth from FL:

PT,

Quote Beth from FL:

<<I would say that APD/CAPD can be an underlying cause of dyslexia so you both could be right. I think there is a huge overlap. A lot of people with auditory processing disorders have trouble reading. But auditory processing disorders are not the only cause of reading difficulties. And, some, although I suspect a minority, of people with auditory processing disorders had no trouble learning to read. >>

Quote Beth from FL:

Gosh Beth, I don't want 4 labels. In all seriousness, you make good points. Gotta get a job so I can get testing and settle this question once and for all.

Quote Beth from FL:

PT

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 07:03:49
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Here in Florida, they have begun to "use the system". The McKay scholarship can be used to get private school paid for by the district. So, the kids can end up in a $22,000/yr school and the sd pays $18,000/yr and the parents pay $4,000/yr. You ought to see those kids "flourish" - with ABA, etc., in a small private setting.

I have a friend who has an austistic child. She doesn't know it (I have suspected for a long time) that the older son is AS. He could sing and read, "Rock of Ages Cleft for Me" at 4 - doing sign language at 2-1/2. (I would have been happy if my daughter would have been able to read OR sing it!). Though he couldn't "Go in the bedroom and bring me the brush". (I'm talking 1 direction). She would be YELLING (she was stressed with the youngest) "The brush, The brush! Right there in front on you! See it? It's blue - ON the nightstand, etc". Yet, the kid could read ANYTHING and was a great conversationalist. He was 6 and reading to his younger brother. The youngest only spoke occasionally and copied words off movies. She was so busy with the younger, she missed the older son's problems completely.

PT
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 07:06:22
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Hi Rebecca,

<<As for the dyslexia, dyslexia has to do with decoding/ encoding. Period.>>

Don't mean to come across as ganging up on you but I have to agree with Des about Dyslexia. Basically, all the definitions I have seen on Dyslexia say it has to do with a core weakness in phonological processing.

I do realize some researchers like MaryAnn Wolfe feel that it also involves rapid naming deficiencies. But I haven't seen anything that mentions having poor comprehension. If that were the case, technically, you would be saying that all NLDers have dyslexia and that's just not the case.

<<As for outgrowing, it is true that you can remediate some aspects of ASD (like some of the SI problems), and that the child can learn more social skills. But as even in my 50s (and you will just naturally learn more by then) there are many times I do or say things that can only be thought of as autistic. IN fact I have decided that there are good sides to autism. >>

Des, thanks for mentioning this. I have gotten into debates with people and made this very same point. But I was always reluctant to push it too hard because I thought maybe I was being too close minded.

<<The following is an article written by an autistic person, and explores this topic. Warning: some parents do NOT like this.
http://web.syr.edu/~jisincla/dontmourn.htm>>

I read it real briefly and it is a great article. Have to go back when I have more time. Thanks!

PT

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 07:07:40
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Beth, I think I had outstanding visual memory. That's why I read so well (this is purely my guess). Tho, I think my auditory and memory in general is starting to go! :wink:

Seriously, I was the one who could see a phone # and remember it, and spelling, etc., could memorize the mult. facts easily, but had a heck of a time with division.

Never had a problem in school. That's why I was so baffled with Jami - I just could NOT understand how reading could be hard!

PT
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 07:23:46
Subject:

Re: Folks like me don't seem to exist.

Hi Linda,

I am so sorry your son had to go through so much garbage. Gosh, I shudder to think what would have happened to him if he didn't have a great mom like you.

As an FYI, even if the label is warranted and I feel it is in my situation, it is devastating because according to the research by Rourke, we might as well hang it up. As a result, alot of the neuropsychs who write the report, seem to follow along that line.

One situation was funny though. When I took a graduate level course at a local college, to get accomodations, I had to meet with the head of disability services and provide a copy of the report. Reading body language does not come naturally to me but I could tell from reading this person's, she was going nuts because I was nothing like the person who was described in the report.

Your son's situation with comprehension is a perfect example of what is all wrong with labels. It is assumed that if you have NLD, you can't comprehend no matter what. That is not correct. So what happened to your son is even more galling since he was incorrectly diagnosed with NLD to begin with.

And even if comprehension is the issue, you have to look into the reasons why someone can't comprehend. If it is secondary to another reason like what you mentioned with your son, then technically, it is not correct to say that someone can't comprehend. Obviously, that is one label I have a problem with big time.

Obviously, you are preaching to the choir, Linda.

PT

des
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 14:37:23
Subject:

Re: Folks like me don't seem to exist.

>As an FYI, even if the label is warranted and I feel it is in my situation, it is devastating because according to the research by Rourke, we might as well hang it up. As a result, alot of the neuropsychs who write the report, >seem to follow along that line.

I hated the stuff by Rourke. I read his book quite a long time ago, I had been dxed nld (oh yes it was lower case, this is before they actually had come up with the term). The thing that really bothered me, is I felt he had zilch liking for these kids. They seemed like just some research animals that were vaguely disagreeable. You read a lot of other stuff and it doesn't sound like that. And as you say, he sounds like you might as well hang it up.

>isability services and provide a copy of the report. Reading body language does not come naturally to me but I could tell from reading this person's, she was going nuts because I was nothing like the person who >was described in the report.


Hah! Well I felt Rourke's cases were such that if I met them on the street I wouldn't know them. I think NLDonline is a much better place to get info.
There are some parent's stories and so on and it gives a much nicer feel, and I'm sure I would recognize those kids.


>Your son's situation with comprehension is a perfect example of what is all wrong with labels. It is assumed that if you have NLD, you can't comprehend no matter what. That is not correct. So what happened to your son is even more galling since he was incorrectly diagnosed with NLD to begin with.


I think that V/V is great for comprehension. I think many kinds of comprehension problems could be dealt with regardless of dx. There is something to be said for a good dx, but I bad one is terrible.
That would be a VERY long story on my part.


>And even if comprehension is the issue, you have to look into the >reasons why someone can't comprehend. If it is secondary to another

True, if comprehension problems are due to not really being able to hear/ understand, like CAPD, then V/V wouldn't work either.

>Pt

--des

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 14:55:08
Subject:

info

I can't believe the amazing amount of info posted in this thread. You are all so unbelievebly knowledgeable...wow!

I registered my girl for school yesterday...2nd grade. She will have sped for 125 mins a day...all in reading/phonics. She was excited to show me where she will have P.T.O. (actually, she meant O.T...she gets everything mixed up!). I wish we were actually closer to Chicago as it sounds like there are some really good speech people there. As it is we are 2 hours from Chicago.

I don't understand about half of the Abbreviations that have been used here, but I do know one thing...you all really know your stuff and it sure has been nice to have such intelligent and caring people help me with my daughter's problems. I wish you all were my next door neighbors!

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 15:55:16
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

Des and others,

I think if you go back and carefully read my posts on Hyperlexia you will see that I wrote that it is on a spectrum which would imply varying degrees.

In the mid 90s I was on the CAN (Cure Autism Now) board in IL. I Mced more than one medical or therapy conference and work with researchers in the field of Autism. Before being called up for the first Gulf War I was a research assistant in the field of Archaeology and Physical Anthropology. I had the misguided idea :oops: that being a reservist was a good way to pay for grad school. Any way I am posting this to say I know how to read a peer review paper and how to read a mass publication.

What you may not know is that some researchers in the field of Autism do not think that LKS variant and Autism are rare. Depending on who you read or talk to the numbers are as high a 30% to 45% of folks with Autism may also have LKS variant.

Some times things are rare only because clinicians do not look for it and that is true in both the fields of Autism and Dyslexia. Sometimes it takes a long as 20 years for new research that has been proven with more than one study to trickle down to the clinician and then to the laymen. As far as the clinician and the laymen are concerned something is still rare or untreatable when in reality neither may be true.

What I see in the field of Dyslexia is the mass publishing of one school of research thought. Vision and cognitive issues are left on the back burner while Phoneme is placed in front and given lots of exposure. That can be a big mistake.

It is not uncommon that a researcher or school of research thought can be blinded by their hypothesis. Dyslexia is a field that is really just in the beginning of being explored (kind of just like Autism :) I would caution the embracing of one school of thoughts definition as to just what either disorder is and what the underlying causes are and what treatments may or may not work.

Respectfully,
Rebecca

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 20:46:49
Subject:

The more I know the less I know

Especially when it comes to autism and dyslexia and speech, language and hearing impairments. I understand some parts of each but I don't think anyone really understands something unless they have experienced and lived it. Not to mention we each have our own pair of rose colored glasses that color the way we view subjects. :oops:

It has been difficult for me to even comprehend the challenges my own daughter and son face with the same genetic progressive hearing loss I have. Even though I have walked a mile or more in their mocassins I still have difficulty in understanding what they each experience. There isn't anything I can do to "fix" their hearing loss, I can aid them with expensive state of the art hearing aids but they still have their own battles they face with coping with the fluctuation and progression in the hearing loss, tinnitus, embarrassment from wearing hearing aids, attention, communcation and learning.

When I was talking with my hearing impaired oldest son about his little sister's progressive loss in hearing, I could hear him choke up. :( My son is in a pre-med program and his interests are genetics and pediatrics. I am sure he will be actively researching ways to understand and hopefully halt what is happening to his whole family and future generations. :)

des
Posted: Wed, 06 August 2003 23:20:08
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

>I think if you go back and carefully read my posts on Hyperlexia you will see that I wrote that it is on a spectrum which would imply varying degrees.

Oh yes, I understand this. It's why it's called a spectrum disorder. It was quite a shock to the world of autism as I remember. But it does make sense, after all there are degrees of hearing loss, vision impairment and even giftedness.

>What you may not know is that some researchers in the field of Autism do not think that LKS variant and Autism are rare. Depending on who you read or talk to the numbers are as high a 30% to 45% of folks with Autism >may also have LKS variant.

I had not heard that LKS or a variant there of was more common. I do know that autism is not rare.

>What I see in the field of Dyslexia is the mass publishing of one school of research thought. Vision and cognitive issues are left on the back burner while Phoneme is placed in front and given lots of exposure. That can be a big mistake.


I have no problem including visual issues or cognition for that matter. I think it is one of the geniuses of LMB, that they use such highly interactive questioning to engage the child.

The problem I have in classifying severe comprehension problems as dyslexia is that the treatment of it is so extremely different. It can be just as severe a problem, no doubt. I knew someone who had so poor comprehension that reading more than short fragments was extremely difficult.

You could quite conceivably get a dyslexic kid who read at a higher reading level than a hyperlexic kid.


>It is not uncommon that a researcher or school of research thought can be blinded by their hypothesis. Dyslexia is a field that is really just in the beginning of being explored (kind of just like Autism :) I would caution the embracing of one school of thoughts definition as to just what either disorder is and what the underlying causes are and what treatments may or may not work.


Well I would concede that it is possible that the underlying problems
*could* be similar. I doubt it, but it is possible. For example, the underlying processes of dyslexia could be issues like auditory processing, visual processing, and even some sensory integration. It seems unlikely that the processing problems of a hyperlexic child who can sound out and say any word but who's comprehension is poor is the same.

>Respectfully,
Rebecca

--des

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 00:20:59
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

I guess I had not made my self clear in some of my posting. I am not totally talking about Hyperlexia here. Only in my first paragraph. I have seen posts on this thread quoting that thus and so define Dyslexia to be............ The researcher being quoted belongs to a certain school of thought which can blind them to other things that can cause Dyslexia.

Some of the very best researchers in any field will not be heard of by the layman because they do not write books intended to be read by the masses. When a parent or teacher or anyone reads a book written for the masses they need to take it with a grain of salt because it is not unbiased. It is a small slice of the work being done. The reader needs to look and see if the authors studies have been duplicated by any one else in the field with the same result. The reader needs to ask questions like is this researcher so into Phoneme skills that they do not even look for vision or....... problems.

Back to Hyperlexia and Autism I do not think anyone would disagree that language plays and important role in the ability to read. Any one who has read the DSMV IV knows that in order to get an autism dx one needs a language delay of at least 2 years. Hyperlexia is a problem for folks with Autism so it is safe to say that there is a language delay of at least 2 years.

I know that there is a prevailing school of thought that Dyslexia (which is a vague term that means something like trouble reading (which could include comprehension) or learning to read) is cause by Phoneme problems only. Well I would guess that if there is a language delay of 2+ years there is a problem somewhere with Phonemes.

Most Autism individuals (maybe excluding few on the high end of the scale) learn and gain language in a gestalt manner. Which means they have a problem breaking language down into its parts. I can read some German, French, Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic (my father has a Ph.D in ancient Semitic languages so I grew up around these languages) but I can not speak any of those languages. I can not break down German, French, Hebrew, Greek or Arabic words down by their phonemes either. But I can sight read enough to catch a train while in Germany or France. I can also in a poor manner pronounce the words that I can sight read. I have heard speakers mostly SLPs and a couple of Neurologists at Hyperlexia conferences describe Hyperlexia to be similar to my reading the above languages.

The experts in the field of Hyperlexia that I have heard speak seem to think that in many individuals with Hyperlexia there is also a type of Dyslexia present. That the child or person has a phenomenal visual memory and is using that to read with and is thus not really decoding in a phonetic manner. Now all of that written there is less known about Hyperlexia than there is about either Autism or Dyslexia so who knows. But it stands to reason that if there is a language delay there is probably a problem some where with breaking down language by phoneme.

It might be interesting the next time your friend holds a card up for her Hyperlexic child to read to change the card from whole word to one letter at a time or better yet to write the words in a common phonetic spelling that might mean some of the words are misspelled, instead of drink write dreenk, instead of cookie write coocky, instead of cake write kaek, ect..... See if the child can still read and understand the card. If not I might question was real phonetic reading taking place or was the child sight reading?

PT
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 07:28:38
Subject:

Rourke/V&V/Comprehension/labels

Hi Des,

<<I hated the stuff by Rourke. I read his book quite a long time ago, I had been dxed nld (oh yes it was lower case, this is before they actually had come up with the term). The thing that really bothered me, is I felt he had zilch liking for these kids. They seemed like just some research animals that were vaguely disagreeable. You read a lot of other stuff and it doesn't sound like that. And as you say, he sounds like you might as well hang it up. >>

You are right on target as that is exactly how I felt. Also, regarding the sense of humor that he decided NLDers don't have - Think about it, if you were one of those people in the study and had to deal with Rourke, would you have a sense of humor? I rest my case:))

<<I think that V/V is great for comprehension. I think many kinds of comprehension problems could be dealt with regardless of dx. There is something to be said for a good dx, but I bad one is terrible.
That would be a VERY long story on my part.>>

Interesting you mention V&V because I am wondering if that would help with my own situation. But I need an evaluation of possible CAPD problems first. It obviously must be a great program since all the professionals on this board who I respect, including you, rave about it.

To add to what you said about having a good diagnosis, it is also imperative that the clinician describe the problems related to that label as it applies to the person's real life. Instead, we get garbage like, so and so received a score that is three standard deviations below the mean.

PT

PT
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 07:51:40
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

Hi Rebecca,

I agree with you that there have been suggestions in research that vision issues are also a contributing factor to Dyslexia. But while I am not a professional like you, because for awhile, I was going nuts wondering whether I had Dyslexia or not, I have searched ad nauseum and have not come across any articles that suggested that comprehension was the only issue. If you have particular references to studies that suggest that, I would be interested in looking at them. Of course, don't expect me to give you a summary of what I read<g>.

Sorry if I seem stubborn on this point. I am just concerned about people getting erroneous labels and thus, not getting the remediations that they need.

I do agree though that research can be slow to catch up with what is really happening. Perfect example is the situation with weight gain from Prozac and related SSRIs. Thank goodness, that is changing.

And of course, I have mentioned Rourke's research on NLD that doesn't seem to be totally accurate. I don't have the credentials to prove anything but it is a perfect example of what you're saying in my opinion.

On an unrelated note, many kudos to you for your service in the military and war.

PT

PT
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 08:09:31
Subject:

Re: The more I know the less I know

Hi Patti,

<<Especially when it comes to autism and dyslexia and speech, language and hearing impairments. I understand some parts of each but I don't think anyone really understands something unless they have experienced and lived it. Not to mention we each have our own pair of rose colored glasses that color the way we view subjects. >>

I understand what you're saying but in my opinion, you're comparing apples to oranges. I definitely realize that unless you have experienced a situation, you can't truly understand what it is like.

But the issue Rebecca mentioned with comprehension and dyslexia is an entirely different issue. As I mentioned in my reply to her, I have searched ad nauseum on Dyslexia because I wondered if I had it. I have seen suggestions about the vision issues she mentioned but I had not seen anything suggested that comprehension was the sole factor. It just doesn't make sense because if that were the case, then alot people with NLD would have Dyslexia and that's just not the situation.

In my opinion, that is not seeing something through rose colored glasses but is simply dealing with facts as they currently exixt. You also have to understand that since I seem to be the exception to every diagnostic rule, I am the last person who would want to keep my rose colored glasses.
Anyway, you or Rebecca want to provide me information that suggests that comprehension is the only factor in Dyslexia, I am willing to reconsider my position. As I said to her, just don't expect me to give you a summary:))

I am also concerned about people getting labeled erroneously because they won't receive the right remediations. That I do know about personally as my reading difficulties were incorrectly labeled.


PT

PT
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 08:45:51
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

<<Most Autism individuals (maybe excluding few on the high end of the scale) learn and gain language in a gestalt manner. Which means they have a problem breaking language down into its parts. I can read some German, French, Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic (my father has a Ph.D in ancient Semitic languages so I grew up around these languages) but I can not speak any of those languages. I can not break down German, French, Hebrew, Greek or Arabic words down by their phonemes either. But I can sight read enough to catch a train while in Germany or France. I can also in a poor manner pronounce the words that I can sight read. I have heard speakers mostly SLPs and a couple of Neurologists at Hyperlexia conferences describe Hyperlexia to be similar to my reading the above languages.>>


Rebecca,

Now I understand where you're coming from. I am not 100% sure on this but from what I understand about people with NLD learning to read who don't have language delays, they tend to learn to read in the same way. But they have no problems pronouncing words and their reading is not impacted except perhaps in the comprehension area.

My own situation where I am the exception to every rule - I have NLD/ADHD. The reason why I always wondered if Dyslexia was a possibility was I have had difficulties in pronoucing certain words and mild decoding difficulties. I have also had unexplained reading difficulties that I actually think can be attributed to many reasons. I don't have that phenominal rote memory that most NLDers have.

Interestingly, I have started reading "Reading Reflex" and already feel I have learned some tricks for decoding unfamiliar words. That leads me to believe that Dyslexia is not an issue and it is simply a case where I got into some bad habits or wasn't taught correctly.

Here is another reason why I feel my problems and the ones that people with Hyperlexia have with phonemic awareness are not true Dyslexic Issues. It is my gut feeling that if I could find a remediation be it V&V or something else and providing I could improve visual tracking problems through VT, that they phonemic awareness issues even if I didn't do a darned thing in remediating them would not be that relevant. Someone who has a hard core case of Dyslexia would not be saying that.

In summary, I agree with you Rebecca that because of own experiences, it is definitely possible for someone with Hyperlexia to have phonemic awareness problems. But until proven otherwise, I don't think that necessarily equates to dyslexia. Of course, what I am stating are opinions and nothing more.

Well, obviously, you know what questions I will be posing to my NLD friends:))

PT

des
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 12:15:12
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

>I guess I had not made my self clear in some of my posting. I am not totally talking about Hyperlexia here. .. The researcher being quoted belongs to a certain school of thought which can blind them to other things >that can cause Dyslexia.

Well I'm quite sure your right. Researchers only look for what they are looking for. :-)

>Back to Hyperlexia and Autism I do not think anyone would disagree that language plays and important role in the ability to read. Any one who has read the DSMV IV knows that in order to get an autism dx one needs a language delay of at least 2 years. Hyperlexia is a problem for folks with Autism so it is safe to say that there is a language delay of at least 2 >years.


That isn't true with Aspergers and PDD NOS for example. Yes, in many cases that is true, but I think that hyperlexia is prolly a savant skill wherein all odds are off. Of course the comprehension isn't there, so in that case the odds are back on. It only applies to word recognition and decoding.


>Well I would guess that if there is a language delay of 2+ years there is a problem somewhere with Phonemes.

One would think. But the stuff I have read on hyperlexia doesn't say that. In fact that some kids can decode anything. There is no explantion as to why that is.

>Most Autism individuals (maybe excluding few on the high end of the scale) learn and gain language in a gestalt manner. Which means they

Well, of course, if you say except for "a few people" at the high end, then you are pretty much discounting most autistic people, as most of us are at the high end. I know that the lower functioning end is more dramatic and certainly more challenging-- as well as known about for a longer time, but it is quite logical to believe that for every low functioning kid you see, there might be 5-10 higher functioning.

As you say it isn't uncommon.


>t might be interesting the next time your friend holds a card up for her Hyperlexic child to read to change the card from whole word to one letter at a time or better yet to write the words in a common phonetic spelling that might mean some of the words are misspelled, instead of drink write dreenk, instead of cookie write coocky, instead of cake write kaek, ect..... See if the child can still read and understand the card. If not I might question was real phonetic reading taking place or was the child sight reading?[/quote]

Too bad this kid is in another state. But the people on the sites that I saw said that many kids could definitely decode. And they couldn't explain it.
Still it is an interesting research question or problem.

I wonder what NT people do when they see such a word in context. In context I would ignore it as a typo. BTW, a friend of mine thinks I'm hyperlexic. I taught myself to read at age 3 or so, but I don't have all the characteristics like poor verbal language aquisition. Some of the things fit though. Perhaps my interest in the subject anyway.

--des

des
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 12:31:01
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

>hink can be attributed to many reasons. I don't have that phenominal rote memory that most NLDers have.

When these folks write it is usually a generalization of various cases. Obviously every NLDer will be different. If enough things don't fit then you can be pretty sure it isn't it, but people don't always neatly fit in all categories. That's why they have the NOS (not otherwise specified) in the DSM. I don't think NLD is in there? Haven't seen it in years.

>Ielieve that Dyslexia is not an issue and it is simply a case where I got into some bad habits or wasn't taught correctly.

Welll I don't know how old you are, but when I was in school they used whole words (Dick and Jane) and just the merest touch of phonics. I think 90-95% of "dyslexics" are kids that just weren't taught correctly, ok personal bias. But there are lots of fads in education. My sister can't spell if her life depended on it, she was taught like I was. I doubt you'd say she was dyslexic or whatever term you'd use to describe someone who can't spell.

Now they have whole language instead of whole word and there are still kids with dysteachia or something.

>Issues. It is my gut feeling that if I could find a remediation be it V&V or >something else and providing I could improve visual tracking problems

On the LMB webpage they say that Seeing Stars and V/V are for individuals identified as hyperlexic, NLD, (among other things).

>Well, obviously, you know what questions I will be posing to my NLD friends:))

I did ask some high functioning autistic people. One said he was dyslexic (which is possible on how this conversation started), a couple stated that they used NO whole word reading, that they totally started reading by decoding. The guy that wrote the article "Don't Mourn for us" says he is not at all a visual thinker, like the stereotype of autism. If only people would read the research and the textbooks before they got certain disabilities, things would be a lot easier! :-)


>PT


--des

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 12:49:03
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

<<One would think. But the stuff I have read on hyperlexia doesn't say that. In fact that some kids can decode anything. There is no explantion as to why that is.>>

Hi Des,

Here is an exert from a site on hyperlexia that picks up on your point:

"In all the hyperlexic children, there seems to be a visual recognition of "wordness" that may be unrelated to the recognition of the verbal signal. One child would not even attempt to read nonsense syllables since he did not recognize them as words. Another thought it was the funniest thing when he saw "train" was spelled as "trane". Elliot and Needleman (1976) suggest the existence of an innate written language capacity: the ability to recognize a written word as a linguistic symbol as separate from the auditory spoken word.

It is questioned whether all hyperlexic children are 'automatic decoders'. Some hyperlexic children can read anything placed before them, even though they may never have heard or seen those words before, nor do they understand them. They rarely mispronounce even the most difficult words. We also have seen a continuum of abilities, especially before the age of 5. Some children begin as sight readers of familiar words, some are logo readers. Most progress to the point of being able to decode anything. It would be enlightening to understand the process by which a child attains his decoding ability. "

I think what I was trying to say earlier was that even though people with Hyperlexia don't seem to decode in the traditional way, they seem to be able to do it as you say.

Here is the link for the whole article.

http://www.hyperlexia.org/hyperlexia.html

PT

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 15:08:00
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

PT,

I do not think that I posted that cognitive issues could be the only problem. However it is not too big a stretch especially in light of the fact that the term Dyslexia is so fuzzy that one could have a severe short term memory problem that would cause Dyslexia. If someone does not the have the capability of making the sound symbol connection because short term memory is so impaired then I would say it is not too big of a jump to say they are Dyslexic, having trouble reading or learning to read.

The problem is that it is seldom that an individual has just one contributing cause for their dyslexia. My older son had vision, auditory, language, and cognitive issues that all contributed to his dx of Dyslexia besides the fact that he had a nonverbal IQ in the highly gifted range. Each area needed to be remediated in order for him to learn to read. Most of the Neuropsych reports that I have read, and I have read a quite few from several children as a parent advocate or a support group leader, all state more than just Phoneme problems as the contributing factors in the dx of Dyslexia being given.

In the Chicago land area a good portion of the Neuropsychologist and Neurologists when speaking on the subject will say there are 3 areas that are interrelated that cause Dyslexia, language/Auditory issues, Vision issues (visual memory, tracking, ect, ect.....) and Cognitive issues (short term memory, sequencing, long term memory retrieval problems, ect....) The last Neuropsch that I heard speak on the subject said that most folks with a dx of Dyslexia will have issues in at least 2 areas and the severe cases will have issues in all the areas.

I think common sense would lead one to think that any of the above areas would cause problems in ones ability to read or learn to read. If you can not retrieve from long term memory the information that the symbol F represents the sound ef then there is a problem that is separate from the ability to hear and segment the ef sound out of the word fish.

If you are just surfing the web looking for studies I think you will not find what you are looking for. When my son was first dxed with Autism I searched medical libraries. I went to colleges and found who was the head of the Speech and Language department or Psych department or OT, or Neurology department...... And I talk with those folks and their staff and their grad students. I asked them who to read and what to read. I read many of the textbooks being used. I ask what the names of the peer review journal were and then tried searching through the journals to find the info I needed. I found out who had medical or therapy conferences on tape and either bought or borrowed those tapes and listened. NIU was great about letting me check out text books to study. They even let me keep the Prep R which was TEACHs assessing and teaching children with Autism set of books for a year while I used them with my boys. What I tried to do was get as complete of a picture as I could of what was going on with Autism to a lesser degree I have doen this with dyslexia.

Bear in mind that a study looks only at a small piece of the puzzle of any disorder. In college the Neuropsychologist is taught how to test every area and then pull all the pieces together to get a complete picture. Mass produced books from folks like Shaywitz (sp?) will only provided the small piece of the picture that that researcher is interested and working in. It will not give a complete picture and it may not even allude to the work of others in other areas of the field. It is a place to start tho when doing ones personal research as long as it is kept in mind that it may not be the whole picture of just what the disorder is.

Rebecca

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 15:20:40
Subject:

NIU

Rebecca, are you near NIU? My daughter went there for 1 1/2 years for language therapy...the staff was incredibly helpful!!! I am very familiar with the campus.

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 07 August 2003 17:17:52
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Let me start with - Okay, I'm just a mom again.

I have a dyslexic daughter. Adopted. "Family hx of dyslexia". Of course, my evaluator doesn't USE that term so she has: APD, VPD, SID, ADD, fine and gross motor skills problems and motor planning problems.

She has a gifted IQ. Decodes almost on grade level (after 3 years of LIPS, V/V and Great Leaps and 2-1/2 yrs. of SI OT as well as ADD meds)
Comprehension is in the 91st percentile nationally. Blows mymind.

I asked her new OG tutor (recommended by IDA, certified, been doing it for years and teaches up in SC/NC area part of the SUmmer), IS my daughter dyslexic? "Absolutely!" She also told me that "I've never see a child who wants to read so badly".

Anyway, ya'll got a little "over my head" with all the research, etc. I just wasn't clear is anyone was saying dyslexics have poor comprehension.

Anyway, just wanted to throw another "wrench in the works".

PT
Posted: Fri, 08 August 2003 07:38:28
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

<PT - I don't have that phenominal rote memory that most NLDers have.>

<Des - When these folks write it is usually a generalization of various cases. Obviously every NLDer will be different. If enough things don't fit then you can be pretty sure it isn't it, but people don't always neatly fit in all categories. That's why they have the NOS (not otherwise specified) in the DSM. I don't think NLD is in there? Haven't seen it in years.>>

So true Des. Actually, I think if I went to 10 different neuropsychologists, there would be a tie vote on NLD. No, it isn't in the DSM but Rourke and company are working on that.

<PT - Ielieve that Dyslexia is not an issue and it is simply a case where I got into some bad habits or wasn't taught correctly.>

<Des - Welll I don't know how old you are, but when I was in school they used whole words (Dick and Jane) and just the merest touch of phonics. I think 90-95% of "dyslexics" are kids that just weren't taught correctly, ok personal bias. But there are lots of fads in education. My sister can't spell if her life depended on it, she was taught like I was. I doubt you'd say she was dyslexic or whatever term you'd use to describe someone who can't spell.

Now they have whole language instead of whole word and there are still kids with dysteachia or something.>>

I am almost 48 but when I went to school, it was the same deal. Funny, I used to rail when people claimed dyslexia was the result of dysteachia but I have changed my thinking on that. That doesn't mean I don't think it is a legitimate label because it is. However, I now realize there are other issues to look at.

<<I did ask some high functioning autistic people. One said he was dyslexic (which is possible on how this conversation started), a couple stated that they used NO whole word reading, that they totally started reading by decoding. The guy that wrote the article "Don't Mourn for us" says he is not at all a visual thinker, like the stereotype of autism. If only people would read the research and the textbooks before they got certain disabilities, things would be a lot easier! :-)>>

Des, you're again preaching to the choir. Someone on an NLD board assumed that all NLDers have trouble with fractions. They were easy for me even though I have absolutely no visual spatial abilities. But everyone assumes you can only learn math one way and that just isn't the case.

PT

PT
Posted: Fri, 08 August 2003 08:16:09
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

<<Anyway, ya'll got a little "over my head" with all the research, etc. I just wasn't clear is anyone was saying dyslexics have poor comprehension. >>

Hi Leah,

In spite of my attempts at research, I am just an amateur like you. And in reading your previous posts, you seem quite knowledgeable.

To answer your question, who knows? I have already mentioned what Shaywitz said. On a related note, when I took an assistive technology course and did a project on the effectiveness of screenreaders for folks with dyslexia, their comprehension was excellent even though they read very slowly. Of course, that proves nothing but just wanted to throw it out there.

This is my amateur opinion so take it for what it is worth - It is important to define what you mean when you say comprehension. Is the person having trouble understanding a story because he/she is spending all her/his time on decoding? Is it because he can't remember a darned thing she read? Or is the comprehension due to what we typically think of which is the person truly doesn't understand the story?

Obviously, the 1st scenario could definitely be an issue with people with dyslexia. Regarding the 2nd scenario, I would also say yes. It seems the 3rd scenario is not an issue even folks with Dyslexia have to read an article extremely slowly to understand what they have just read. But even though Sally Shaywitz has labeled folks who have problems decoding and comprehending (using the classical definition) as having language learning disabilities, frankly, I can where other professionals might continue to call that dyslexia.

In my responses to Rebecca, I was objecting to saying that folks with Dyslexia only have problems with comprehension (using the classical definition). But I realize I might have misunderstood some of her points.

Now that I have confused you even more:)), I had better quit.

PT

PT
Posted: Fri, 08 August 2003 08:42:46
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

Hi Rebecca,

Actually, the neuropsychologist who did my evaluation did not look at the total picture in spite of having top credentials. So unfortunately, my experience has been different.

Thanks for the suggestion on journals but I wouldn't last two minutes in a medical library because of the various difficulties as the result of my LDs. One new trick I discovered is that I can access journals through my library's online databases. Too early to tell if that is worthwhile or not.

One tactic I can use is to do more searching of the pub med articles as my sister-in-law told me she has access to the full texts. Of course, I don't want to abuse that privilege:))

I think from one of your firsts posts, I assumed you were stating that comprehension was the only issue in Dyslexia. But if I read that wrong, my apologies.

It seems in reading more of your posts, we don't disagree that much but are simply looking at the issues slightly differently. For example, I definitely have difficulties with visual tracking, ect, but I don't see that as my part of my reading difficulties but as a co-existing condition just like depression isn't part of my LD but definitely is an issue when it is not taken care of of.

Yeah, I agree it is possible if you have memory difficulties, you are not going to remember the decoding rules. In fact, because of my own difficulties in not being able to remember what I read, that is why I looked in that area.

I also agree that research doesn't always cover everything. For example, I think that executive function issues haven't been studied enough as a definite issue in reading. I know Martha Denkla has done some work but I haven't seen anybody else who has.

Finally Rebecca, I just realized another reason why I might have seemed extra sensitive on this issue and I can't believe I didn't think of it until now.
When I was evaluated through the state voc rehab offices, the dyslexia label was applied to my reading difficulties very loosely even though the standard tests for it were never used such as the CTOOP (sp?) testing. As a result, I walked away from there having no idea what my problems were but having a label that told me nothing. Then when I read the description of what Dyslexia was about, I was obviously alot more confused since it seemed I fit very few of the criteria.

I think my worry Rebecca was that if we start thinking that all difficulties in reading can be attributed to Dyslexia, it is going to become a very unhelpful diagnosis. I realize that reasonable people can disagree but my concern is that this label will be given to people without an explanation by the evaluator as to what you mean by it.

Just my opinion.

PT

des
Posted: Fri, 08 August 2003 12:57:45
Subject:

Re: Hyperlexia and being 50?

<So true Des. Actually, I think if I went to 10 different neuropsychologists, there would be a tie vote on NLD. No, it isn't in the DSM but Rourke and company are working on that.>

YIKES! YOu may have me beat on the 10 neuropsychologists there. :-)
I wonder if Rourke plans to have an NLD NOS. :-)

<Des - Welll I don't know how old you are, but when I was in school they

Hah old enough, actually in my 50s.

<Now they have whole language instead of whole word and there are still kids with dysteachia or something.>>

>I am almost 48 but when I went to school, it was the same deal. Funny, I used to rail when people claimed dyslexia was the result of dysteachia but I have changed my thinking on that. That doesn't mean I don't think it is a legitimate label because it is. However, I now realize there are other >issues to look at.

Well I do too, and maybe 95% percent is a bit high, but I think that there are many kids that are just poorly taught. Or inappropriately taught. Or now like my experience trying to get a job in Albuquerque, if the special ed is 19 in a class, what's the regular ed. I'm sure many kids just can't learn with 38 kids in a class or whatever they have. I read a book-- can't recall name-- that claims there is no dyslexia, wouldn't go that far, but she has a point.

<s he is not at all a visual thinker, like the stereotype of autism. If only people would read the research and the textbooks before they got certain disabilities, things would be a lot easier! :-)>>

>Des, you're again preaching to the choir. Someone on an NLD board assumed that all NLDers have trouble with fractions. They were easy for me even though I have absolutely no visual spatial abilities. But everyone >assumes you can only learn math one way and that just isn't the case.

Well true enough. I don't think disabilities like this fall into neat little clusters, hence a lot of confusion. I think the original questioners' kid falls into some mixed and confusing categories. I certainly do.

--des


PT[/quote]

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Fri, 08 August 2003 13:05:28
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

PT,

I know it is hard to get a good eval and to find a good Neuropsychologist. I have found support groups to be the best place to find info on the good professionals. I have also learned through experience that the best is usually in private practice. A few good folks work in the public sector but not many and it is luck of the draw to find them.

I am now looking at this as an educator tutor. If a tracking issues keeps a child or client from achieving fluency then it needs to be remediated. If every thing else that caused a reading problem is remediated but the tracking is the person reading like some one with out Dyslexia? I doubt it. They may have great decoding skills but have not built fluency due to the tracking. In short they are dysfluent and as a result can have poor comprehension problems.

I read this about tracking from a Doctor on a list that I am a part of and it made perfect sense to me because I have folks in my family who do this. I thought I would share this much with you because it might help you. {OUOTE}If you are a visual dyslexic (dyseidesia) then you likely are a slow dysfluent reader, have a tendency to struggle with reading comprehension, tend to read out loud to yourself (instead of going from vision to language comprehension) you take the visual symbols and convert them into an auditory stimulus thus improving "reading" comprehension tasks by trying to convert them into a "listening" task, and perhaps
spell well phonetically (the way words sound) rather than accurately
(the way words look). There may still be a tendency to read words sound by sound and a likelihood of needing numerous exposures to a word before it becomes part of your sight word vocabulary.{/QUOTE}

Here are a couple of sites that he recommends www.covd.org or www.optometrists.org/stephey and follow the links around. This might help in your search to learn more about dyseidetic dyslexia.

It is my thought that by narrowing down dyslexia to only dysphonesia (auditory based dyslexia) type dyslexia and ignoring dyseidesia (vision based dyslexia) will leave a lot of folks still struggling with reading. Kind of like only treating the language delay in Autism because that is usually the biggest delay and then saying the Autistic person is remediated. Any one who knows anything about autism knows that there is more to it than just language delays and that all SI and any other issues should also be addressed. It is treatment (remediation) of all the problems that brings an autistic child to the place where they can live an independent productive life. With out total remediation a child may be looking at adult life in a group home or worse. It is the same with dyslexia it is treatment (remediation) of all the underlying causes that will bring a dyslexic person independence in their reading.

Hope this made sense.

Rebecca

Anonymous
Posted: Sat, 09 August 2003 22:07:05
Subject:

Auditory and visual issues.

I did phonographix with my son for the auditory issues. He is stronger in the auditory realm but I also wouldn't say it was easy.
We have addressed his sequencing issues through IM and vision therapy, and his visual issues through vision therapy.

I do agree whole heartedly that you must remediate all areas. These children do have multiple problems.

My son's optometrist told me that 80% of those with speech issues will have visual tracking issues. If they are having trouble with the muscles around their mouth they will also often have trouble controlling their eye movements.

It is way more complex than that but I do think that for a child to seem LD they have to have more than one area of disabilty. Most people have problems with something but they can compensate well enough to do well in school.

Anonymous
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 08:51:50
Subject:

meaning of dyslexia

The word 'dyslexia' literally means 'dys' a problem or interference and 'lexia' language.

While many people use the word to indicate a reading disability, dyslexic children many have any one of a number of problems with language ie spoken or written language. Some dyslexic children might read well, others not at all well.

the terms used when speaking of learning differences are often bandied about and it's always good when speaking to teachers or with parents to devote a little time to making sure everyone's on the same page with the meanings of the words that are being bandied about.

Anonymous
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 09:11:34
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

As a former elementary teacher who has 15 years experience teaching reading in elementary school to learning disabled students, I can assure you that dyslexia exists independently of dysteachia.

When dysteachia is the reason for the lag, then the student catches up pretty readily after spending a couple of years in resource, providing solid teaching techniques are used.

When dyslexia is present, the student usually has several processing difficulties that interfere on a long term basis with reading fluency. So, you work on the phonological aspect and get good improvement, but it never gets to be as good as a nondyslexic reader. Multisyllabic words continue to be challenging, even after specific teaching and practice. But, this gets much, much better. Speed usually remains a lifelong issue, even with much training. Dyslexics tend, as a group, to have sloppier reading, than nondyslexics.

All aspects of a dyslexic readers reading skills improve with very explicit and direct teaching, but this process is not rapid, for every piece must be specifically taught and practiced, so remediation takes years.

Anonymous
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 11:57:21
Subject:

I have lost track:))

Hi Des,

<<YOu may have me beat on the 10 neuropsychologists there. :-)
I wonder if Rourke plans to have an NLD NOS. :-)>>

No offense to neuropsychologists as I would say this no matter who did the testing but I couldn't imagine going through it ten times. Once was bad enough.

LOL at your NOS NLD statement. I have got the ADHD NOS one so it would be perfect if I could get the NLD one. Ok, I am really getting silly.

<<I read a book-- can't recall name-- that claims there is no dyslexia, wouldn't go that far, but she has a point.>>

The Reading Reflex Book, maybe?

>Des, you're again preaching to the choir. Someone on an NLD board assumed that all NLDers have trouble with fractions. They were easy for me even though I have absolutely no visual spatial abilities. But everyone >assumes you can only learn math one way and that just isn't the case.

<<Well true enough. I don't think disabilities like this fall into neat little clusters, hence a lot of confusion. I think the original questioners' kid falls into some mixed and confusing categories. I certainly do. >>

I definitely do also.

PT


PT[/quote][/quote]

Anonymous
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 12:09:34
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Hi Rebecca,

<<I read this about tracking from a Doctor on a list that I am a part of and it made perfect sense to me because I have folks in my family who do this. I thought I would share this much with you because it might help you. {OUOTE}If you are a visual dyslexic (dyseidesia) then you likely are a slow dysfluent reader, have a tendency to struggle with reading comprehension, tend to read out loud to yourself (instead of going from vision to language comprehension) you take the visual symbols and convert them into an auditory stimulus thus improving "reading" comprehension tasks by trying to convert them into a "listening" task, and perhaps
spell well phonetically (the way words sound) rather than accurately
(the way words look). There may still be a tendency to read words sound by sound and a likelihood of needing numerous exposures to a word before it becomes part of your sight word vocabulary.{/QUOTE}>>

I don't know Rebecca, maybe one reason I debated with you about Dyslexia is all these classifications are too confusing for me:)). Like most of labels, some of what you say fits and the rest doesn't. Since I have had mild decoding difficulties, I don't think I read words by their sounds.

When you say I need multiple exposure to a word, I am not sure that is true decoding wise. But it takes me forever to learn new meanings. It is true my comprehension is alot better when I can read and listen to a passage at the same time.

I could swear my spelling has never been a problem but recently, thanks to middle age I guess is starting to decline. That is a mystery to me.

Thanks, I am very familiar with Doug Stephey and have spoken to him by phone. Very nice person and very generous with his time.

<<It is my thought that by narrowing down dyslexia to only dysphonesia (auditory based dyslexia) type dyslexia and ignoring dyseidesia (vision based dyslexia) will leave a lot of folks still struggling with reading. Kind of like only treating the language delay in Autism because that is usually the biggest delay and then saying the Autistic person is remediated.>>

Excellent point! They do that with NLD and try to say that the social difficulties are the big problem area over everything else. Not true with me.

<< Hope this made sense.>>

It does, thanks.

PT

Anonymous
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 12:15:13
Subject:

Re: meaning of dyslexia

<<The word 'dyslexia' literally means 'dys' a problem or interference and 'lexia' language.

While many people use the word to indicate a reading disability, dyslexic children many have any one of a number of problems with language ie spoken or written language. Some dyslexic children might read well, others not at all well.>>

Hi Sara,

Question. I have a friend who has a similar profile to mine as we don't seem to neatly fit one label. This person reads well but due to difficulties with grammar, struggles with writing. She/he wondered if that was part of Dyslexia or simply Dysgraphia.

PT

Rebecca in IL
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 22:22:19
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

PT,

I am glad that it made sense. I did not use Dr.Doug Stephey name because I was not sure if he would want me to :? There is a Doc in IL named Dr. Neil Margolis who worked with my son and who has spoken at a couple of Autism conferences that I Mcd who speaks about almost the same things that Dr. Stephey writes/ posts. He also has one of the best bed side manners with young children of any Doc we have seen and we have seen enough to last a life time :roll:

I know that my son made tremendous improvement with his vision after seeing Dr. Margolis. He had almost no focal vision but after working on the activities that Dr. Margolis mapped out my son was able to eat with a spoon and do puzzles, ect... stuff he had never done before.

I really do think that a holistic approach is the best way to go but that is my opinion and experience. I hope that you find the answers to your problems.

Rebecca

des
Posted: Sun, 10 August 2003 23:52:48
Subject:

Re: I have lost track:))

des:
<I wonder if Rourke plans to have an NLD NOS. :-)>>
PT:
>LOL at your NOS NLD statement. I have got the ADHD NOS one so it would be perfect if I could get the NLD one. Ok, I am really getting silly.

des:
Of course you're not being silly, the DSM is loaded with NOS of just about everything, why not NLD NOS.


des:
<<I read a book-- can't recall name-- that claims there is no dyslexia, wouldn't go that far, but she has a point.>>

PT:
The Reading Reflex Book, maybe?

des:
Nope but it was a McGuinness book.

des:
<Well true enough. I don't think disabilities like this fall into neat little clusters, hence a lot of confusion. I think the original questioners' kid falls into some mixed and confusing categories. I certainly do. >>

Pt:
I definitely do also.

When you were born or whenever you forgot to read the books/articles that would tell you how to come out. Now I'm getting silly and for real.


BTW, someone mentioned dyslexia as a definition-- strictly dividing the word up into it's roots. It's nice if it were greek or something which it isn't. I do know that some dyslexic kids have difficulty with verbal language, writing (dysgraphia), articulation, etc. But I have never heard of it applying to a child that did read well. I think the *word* dyslexia may be built on it's greek (or whatever) components but the concept is based on the brain damage condition known as alexia. This is when a person can't read after some type of brain damage. There are several other conditions where the terms are used in a similar way, afaik. When a child only has trouble with language, it's called specific language disorder-- there's a greek (maybe) term for that.

>PT

--des


PT[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Anonymous
Posted: Mon, 11 August 2003 09:37:06
Subject:

Fluency

I saw something interesting with my son yesterday. Before vision therapy he could read but would miss small words. I guess some would say he was a "sloppy" reader.

He hasn't had this problem for awhile.

One of the exercises requires he read with a negative and then positive lense. This forces a quick shift in focus. He has to strain to see with the negative lense.

When doing this he keeps missing the small words but is reading the multisyllable words fine.

I had always understood that missing small words was a sign of a vision problem but now know it to be true.

My son was dyslexic but isn't anymore. It did take a long time to get him to this point and it certainly wasn't easy. To me, a dyslexic is any person for whom reading is a bigger challenge based on specific underlying deficits that can range from anything to visual memory to phonological processing to sequencing to visual tracking etc etc. I think most people have at least one defict that they just compensate for. I haven't met anyone with the perfect brain, yet. I think dyslexics have more than one deficit or a severe deficit.

The key is accurate diagnosis of and treatment for the specific deficits. If this is done, I do believe anyone can become a good reader. I am not saying this can be done easily.

So, is my son the good reader a dyslexic. I think he was dyslexic ( he certainly had specific underlying deficits that made reading difficult) but isn't anymore. He is still dysgraphic.
If you can't read well you are dyslexic. It is a very broad word that can mean many things to many people.

des
Posted: Mon, 11 August 2003 18:39:38
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Talking about a dyslexic kid that was remediated to the point of being a good reader:
But then the dyslexia is, well I wouldn't say "cured" but remediated to the point that he is a good reader. This was different (I think) than describing dyslexia as a language disorder not involving reading by using the roots of dyslexia.

BTW, "mom" you should pat yourself on the back. Not to be silly or anything but most dyslexics even those who end up reading fairly well never find it easy. Sounds like a combo of early and appropriate intervention.

--des

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 12 August 2003 09:37:49
Subject:

Not a dyslexic

If I took him in to be diagnosed by a neuropsychologist today he would not be diagnosed dyslexic. It really is all semantics but how can someone be dyslexic if they like to read and can read better than most in their class.

I come from a medical background where once a problem no longer exists it is considered cured.

I know some would even say he never was dyslexic. I just roll my eyes to such comments because it really does negate all we have been through.

This is a tough issue for me because of all the nonsense I have had to go through with the school.

I had a nice man with a PHD tell me he was dyslexic and I can't teach him to read because dyslexics never really learn to read well. There was a whole lot of other nonsense too.

I have a problem with that assumption because it takes the responsibility away from the educational system and the parents. I think the adults have to stop handing out labels and start removing the burdens these children carry.

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 12 August 2003 11:14:02
Subject:

Re: Not a dyslexic

Hi Linda,

<<I know some would even say he never was dyslexic. I just roll my eyes to such comments because it really does negate all we have been through. >>

Boy do I relate to this. Even though no one has said that I never had LD, I get comments that my problems must be minor because I compensate so well. Uh, I work my "you know what off" so my problems appear minor or that they don't exist.

<<I had a nice man with a PHD tell me he was dyslexic and I can't teach him to read because dyslexics never really learn to read well. There was a whole lot of other nonsense too. >>

Gosh, I didn't realize this was still going on among people with Dyslexia since that is such a well known condition. So sad and I hear this all the time in the NLD Community. Well. Rourke said we can't do such and such. My answer is always that is a bunch of BS.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect my LDs to disappear because that isn't going to happen but I just refuse to accept the gloom and doom prognosis.

<<I think the adults have to stop handing out labels and start removing the burdens these children carry.>>

Linda, I had an interesting experience with this issue. On the one hand, I definitely agree with you as labels haven't exactly served me very well as a person with various LDs.

But when I sensed on an email list I belong to that people were railing against labels because it depended on who did the evaluation, I started to rebel. Maybe it is because of my NLD but I feel labels for me at least serve as the overall picture that I need before I get into the details. I am barely NLD in my opinion but at least it gives me the framework and I can work from there.

PT

des
Posted: Tue, 12 August 2003 12:55:09
Subject:

Re: Not a dyslexic

>If I took him in to be diagnosed by a neuropsychologist today he would not be diagnosed dyslexic. It really is all semantics but how can someone be dyslexic if they like to read and can read better than most in their class.

Yes, I am not sure either, I was sort of taking the middle ground that he was a treated or remediated dyslexic. He could be a "recovered" one as well but will he, say, have difficulty reading and learning a foriegn language? Or whate if he gets to more advanced content areas, as in college?

>I come from a medical background where once a problem no longer exists it is considered cured.


Well not entirely- take things like depression, epilepsy, etc. But they still connotate the need for treatment or at least attention, as I think maybe your son might, say in the above situation.

Not to be a naysayer or anything. I think if I were you I would be very proud of him and myself. You both worked hard.


>I know some would even say he never was dyslexic. I just roll my eyes to such comments because it really does negate all we have been through.

Fighting words!!!

--des

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 12 August 2003 20:21:17
Subject:

epilepsy and depression

Both epilepsy and depression are conditions that are treated and there is no cure. They require medication or some other outside intervention like diet and exercise to keep the symptoms in check. The current treatment options only treat symptoms and do not cure. That is not really apples to apples. I think that is similar to a child that is medicated for adhd. They still have the condition but the symptoms are in check because of meds. Stop the meds and the condition comes back.

I think we have done more than treat my son's symptoms. Honestly, that is what I think his school was trying to do. They addressed the symptoms which are the academic failings rather than the underlying memory, sequencing, phonemic awareness issues. They tried to move around his "problem" by giving him less challenging work.

It was more nursing home than hospital. At least that was my experience. Yes, in that environment dyslexia is incurable.

Neuroscience continues to prove that neural pathways can be changed.


I guess we won't know what is permanent as he is very young. I know some of the deficits he previously had are gone for good. He can decode anything quickly. Will he one day lose his ability to decode anything quickly? I truely don't see it. It is too early to tell if his vision issues might come back. Those skills are still rather new.

Dyslexia is just a word after all. In the end it means very little to me. I have already ridden the label rollercoaster. It doesn't matter what you call it. Just treat specific underlying deficits and then maybe none of us will ever need labels.

Anonymous
Posted: Tue, 12 August 2003 21:08:27
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Jami is a "remediating dyslexic". SHe does, however, still have remnants of the dyslexia and, I believe, always will. I am reading Overcoming Dyslexia right now and could kick myself for missing so many of those early signs. Especially the speech.

Linda, Jami also reads well above grade level now, but still has many of the omissions and lack of speed that dyslexics are known for. She gets much of her comprehension from context. SHe has still says "bisgetti, yogret, etc., and probably always will.

So, yes, Jami is a certain case of a classic dyslexic who is now, b/c of early intervention and perserverance, reading better than many of her classmates in the area of comprehension.

Spelling is horrendous, and fluency is poor, but comprehension is excellent.

Anonymous
Posted: Wed, 13 August 2003 09:02:26
Subject:

Sloppy errors

Leah,

The sloppy errors were taken care of through vision therapy. I know that your daughter is doing well and vision therapy is a lot of work so you may not want to go there.
I just would like people to know that those problems can be dealt with.

Anonymous
Posted: Thu, 14 August 2003 11:39:17
Subject:

dyslexia

Leah,

I am reading Overcoming Dyslexia also. My son is 6 and I am amazed that so much of it describes him to a "T". My view of Dyslexia has completely changed.

What type of remediations/intervention have you used to help your child. Since my son is repeating K. we are thankfully getting to it early but I still feel panicked by it all. We have started Phonographix with him over the summer. He is doing okay but his memory is so low that he has a hard time recalling what he learned from the previous lesson. He also only knows the numbers 0,5 from sight but can count to 10 consistenly but he really should be able to do more but his memory is holding him back.

Any suggetions that worked for your child would be so appreciated.

Blessings,
Diane

Anonymous
Posted: Fri, 15 August 2003 08:40:25
Subject:

Re: Dyslexia question?

Jami received Sensory Integration Occupational Therapy for her visual processing deficit I guess we only remediated the auditory processing deficit through LIPS (part of the Lindamood Bell "package" that you hear so much about). Looking back, we might have tried Interactive Metronome b/c I hear it does wonders for APD, attention, etc.

I know Linda has had excellent results with the Vision therapy, and I might have done that, or things in general in a little different order, if I had to do it over again - or at least looked at the "research". When Jami was evaluated, I was told, "Get LMB and SI OT" so I did.

So, Jami rec'd Lindamood Bell and SI OT. SHe is following up with Orton Gillingham currently (in retrospect, I MAY have tried OG to begin with b/c I think she would be a better speller if she had had that early on), but I can on guess at that. I like the fact that OG incorporates reading, writing AND spelling simultaneously. Of course, those certified OG tutors are few and far between and there's only 1 practicing in my fair city currently. (Sometimes I thing I should go back to school and learn all this).


Wish I had done a speech and language evaluation on her early on b/c I see more and more articulation problems as she gets into the multisyllabic words. She holds her own, though.

As far as numbers and letters in K-5? SHe would tell me, "Well, YOUR numbers go 1, 2 3, 4, 5, but I have my OWN set of numbers and they go, 2, 5, 1, 3 14, 7". Her 1st LMB tutor said she was TRYING to tell me she had a sequencing problem and I didn't get it! Same "excuse" with the alphabet.

Even today at almost 11, she usually will miss September or October (or both) when doing the months of the year and can only do it if I say, "Okay, start with January". (She never can remember the name of the 1st month of the year).

I tell her not to worry. SHe will have a planner or palm pilot and the months are always in the right order.!

You know, you do what you can to remediate, you teach them to compensate and you tell them they're AWESOME no matter what!