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Teaching Students with LD and ADHD

school's assessmant CELF test


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Joined: Nov 03, 2005
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Posted Feb 22, 2003 at 1:47:42 PM
Subject: school's assessmant CELF test


I have a 13 year old duaghter with ADHD who is special ed qualified under OHI. I suspect she has a learning disability. I have been concerned about her ability to express herselp orally. I expressed this concern before the original assessment. The assesment picked up: "there exists a significant discrepancy between W's estimated cognition and achievement in written language due it psychological processing disorders in attention and concentration" Is it legitamate for them to attribute this descrepancy to ADHD?

I just requested my Daughters files and was provided all the tests they did with the files. She was given the WIAT test but two of the subtests were not given; and noticed that the psychologist did not test her on listening comprehension or oral expression is there some good reason for that or are they intentionally not trying to pick up a problem so thry won't have to deal with it?

The school recently did a speech and language assessment and I got the results yesterday. The testing they did showed no problems. I am not sure but I don't think they did a thorough evaluation. They did a CELF test and only did sub test #6. I found out that CELF has 11 subtests, and they only did one. I found out that there should be receptive, expressive and total language scores as well as percentile ranks, norm curve equalivalants and age equivalents. The only information provided was a raw score of 22 which is the 65th percentile for grade seven. My daughter told me that the speech therapist said she was going to skip some tests because she has a very good vocabulary. Is it legitimate to do one subtest and conclude there isn't any point in doing the other subtests because she did well on one, or are they yanking my chain ???
Other tests done were TARPS, raw score 63; age equivalent 12.7; 41st percentile, and TOPS raw score 87; age equivalent 12.10.

Those three tests were the only tests done in the speech and language assessment..

Any insights are appreciated

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Anonymous
Joined Apr 21, 2014
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 2:09:21 PM

Frankly some of those subtests appear to have little meaning. The word around here is that if you want to qualify a kiddo, use the CELF.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 3:35:20 PM

I thought the CELF consisted of 11 subtests, so did they really assess her with the CELF if they only did one of the 11 subtests or am I misunderstanding something?

wileysmom

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 5:22:55 PM

I guess I am wondering what are the expressive language problems you have noticed? I imagine the SLP was getting good scores and stopped testing because she assumed your daughter would not score low on the other subtests.

As far as the issue of ADHD causing the written language delay, I'd say that is irrelevant since they apparently are serving her for written language. The underlying processing disorder is usually a less than precise determination. Is her reading on grade level?

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 5:56:58 PM
Subject:CELF

You should write them a letter explaining why you think the test did not accurately measure your dd's expressive language issues vs. what issues you see at home. Request an IEE (independent evaluation) at their expense.

My dd had the CELF test done at school too. They did 3 subtests on receptive and 3 on Expressive. I did not think that was an accurate assessment - so I would definately not be happy with only administering one? (which one did they do? we had Word Structure, Formulated Sentences and Recalling Sentences)

I had a private SLP do an eval ($200) and she did 14 different tests/subtests. The schools only have to do a very minimum on the tests.

Also, I had brought my dd into Child Find when she was 3 with concerns over Expressive Language. She was found to be in the 5th %tile. The testing was done at a district level vs. school. She was there for over an hour just on expressive/receptive language. They did many more tests than just 3 subtests on the CELF.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 6:07:00 PM
Subject:Re: CELF

Let me just add that almost every test has a typical test battery and extra subtests which are optional. A certain number are required to get composite scores. But not all have to be given. My child was given 8 CELF subtests.
Obviously one subtest would be considerd a screening and not a complete langaueg eval.

Many schools give only the achievement tests in reading, writing, and math as a matter of routine. There have to be specific concerns expressed for them to do the other areas like listening comprehension, etc.

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 6:29:21 PM

Hi Janis,

My daughters expressive language problems as I perceive them are similar to her writing problems.

She is very poor at spelling and she writes very short and simple sentences. She writes the bare minimum, and doesn't seem to know how to elaborate on an idea. Her writing is organized if she is writing about something simple like how to make a salad or describe your bedroom. When she has to write about something more complex such as a recent paper she had to write on Lutheranism and the Reformation her writing is very disorganized, probably because the ideas are complex and new to her. I think she has difficulty expressing herself verbally as well. Just like she does not elaborate when she is writing she does not elaborate when she is having a conversation. She answers questions with a minimum of words. She also often leaves out information that is pertinent for the listener to understand what she is saying. Last week she told me the history teacher had her write standards. I asked her what standards were. She said she didn't know. I asked if it was a list of things she had to write over and over. She said she didn't finish it. I asked her if she could remember what she wrote, she said I can't remember a whole paragraph! (AH HA a clue!). (After about the second question she got very annoyed with me like I was being extremely thick. In a very exasperated tone she said "what's the matter with you, didn't they have standards back when you were riding around in covered wagons?" I said I'll be happy to let you know if we had standards back in the covered wagon days once I figure out what they are.) I asked if she could remember any part of what she wrote and she recalled a few words. This let me understand that it was some kind of code of conduct. Every conversation isn't like this but it happens often enough. I think there may be a receptive language problem as well. She doesn't follow directions and usually only has a vague idea of what she is supposed to be doing for her homework. I always attributed this to ADHD, but I am starting to think there is an undiagnosed, untreated learning disorder as well. Her behavior is deteriorating in middle school and this may be because she is having a harder time compensating for an untreated LD as her schoolwork is getting harder. On the evaluation the school did the only areas she scored low in were spelling 13th percentile, and writing, 14th percentile on the WIAT. I got a copy of the WIAT raw scores and noticed that the psychologist did not test her on listening comprehension or oral expression. These two sections were left blank and they were the two things I was worried about. Is there a legitimate reason she would have skipped these two areas?

The school is not addressing her writing problems. The rsp teacher helped her write an essay with a graphic organizer once and that is all that has been done. I thought it was important to find out exactly what may be causing the discrepancy so it can be addressed with proper remediation and therapy. I am concerned that they may be incorrectly attributing her writhing problems to ADHD, that they are missing something else that may be going on and so are not addressing her problems appropriately. For example the school psych perceived that she does not elaborate when she speaks and one of the goals in her IEP was "W shall reduce shoulder shrugging with by 90 percent". This was supposed to be accomplished by the school psych meeting with my daughter for 30 minutes once a month. If my daughter does not want to talk due to a psychological problem or if it is due to an undiagnosed LD, 30 minutes once a month will not address that either of those problems.

When I started dealing with the school regarding her problems I assumed that they were the experts and I relied on them to address my daughter's needs appropriately. Since then I have had numerous experiences that have taught me that I have to educate myself and advocate for her because they are not necessarily going to do the right thing. At this point I am very suspicious of their input including the testing they have done.

My daughter is bright, so she compensates. I am afraid that because her problems do not present as severe, they are not being properly diagnosed and addressed.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Wileysmom

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 6:48:36 PM
Subject:Re: CELF

I am not sure which subtest it was. All it says on the report is: "subtest 6. This subtest measures the ability to listen and recall literal information". So they did not even test her at all on expressive language, one of the concerns I expressed. They just tested her on receptive language. It says on the assessment: "mother's concern was auditory processing and expressive language". They also did a TOPS and TARPS test. I don't think either one of these tests measure expressive language either.

I am going to have an private evaluation done in the near future. In the mean time I am trying to get a handle on exactly what the school did and did not do.

Thanks,

wileysmom

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 6:51:29 PM

Wileysmom,

Without knowing her IQ scores, I certainly can't say this for sure, but OHI may not be the best placement for her. What in the world do they think they will accomplish in 30 minutes a MONTH?! Goodness! (I'd guess that 14th%ile would equal a standard score of somewhere around 84, so you'd need an IQ score of somewhere between 99 to 106 depending on your state requirements for her to be changed to LD written expression.)

I would make a written request for re-evaluation, so that LD written expression can be assessed. Request that listening comprehension and oral expression also be tested since there is a problem in written language and those two areas are related. Also express that for the same reason you want the full CELF given unless they prefer to pay for an independent evaluation (which DEA already suggested).

You may want to buy Step Up to Writing and hire a former teacher to tutor her with it if you prefer not to do it yourself. I know more kids that age don't always work so well with mom! AVCO sequential spelling is supposed to be good, too.

http://www.stepuptowriting.com/

http://www.spelling.org/Default.htm

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 7:15:26 PM

I am not even sure where to find her IQ on the original assessment they did. They did the Wexlar individual achievement WIAT, visual-motor integration VMI, Differential Ability Scales DAS, and wide range assessment of memory and learning WRAML. Which of these tests is for her IQ? There is nothing that refers to her IQ per-sey.

I have an appointment to have a private assessment done. I don't trust the school anymore. I hope to be able to get reimbursed, but we'll see.

Thanks for all your help!

Wileysmom

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 8:37:01 PM

Very wise to get a private assessment done. I am having a reading eval done privately on my child, too. I just want more in depth testing than the school can do to try and get at the root of her problems.

Maybe the DAS yields an IQ?, but I am very unfamiliar with that test. The WISC is the one usually used.

Let us know how the private testing turns out!

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2003 10:03:14 PM

The DAS has a cognitive part. Look at the results for that test. Like the WISC IQ test it has a mean of 100 and a Sd of 15.

A link to site about the DAS:

http://www.nicoleburge.com/differential_ability_scales.htm

Helen

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2003 11:09:29 AM

there are a whole bunch. A number of them don't measure anything I can understand.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2003 2:04:23 AM

You might ask for a pragmatic language assessment--this would look at the social use of language--not whether she can make certain sounds. It can be hard to find the right person to do it, so make sure the person has some experience with pragmatics. I would also request an assistive technology assessment--should she be using a key board and inspiration software?
My daughter has writing difficulties and it comes from the lack of being able to take perspective of the audience and poor organization or executive functioning skills. She can write creatively and on concrete matters--but can't focus on a main idea and supporting statements. This might be another place to have her skills assessed--and you probably need to find someone privately.
How about a memory test??

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2003 9:44:41 PM

Thanks for the great suggestions. I will look into a pragmatic language assessment and an assistive technology assessment as well. Your daughter's writing difficulties sound very similar to my daughter's difficulties. It is a subtle problem, but a problem none the less. Does your daughter have good days and bad days with her writing? Mine does. She was recently diagnosed with seizure disorder, absence seizures, and I am wondering how much that figures into her difficulties. I wonder if there is minor seizure activity in her brain on the days when it is harder for her to do school work. I know the absence seizures cause problems with short term memory as she goes unconscious for a few seconds here and there and has no memory of what she was doing before the seizure. Because of this she can't follow what is going on in class and can't keep track of her homework. She will write down that she has a test on a certain date, but doesn't know what she will be tested on or what she should study.

Thanks for your feedback!

Wileysmom

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2003 9:47:07 PM

Thanks for the link. I took a look and it helped me better understand her assessment.

Wileysmom

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