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fluency question


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Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 87
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Posted Jul 21, 2007 at 11:52:59 AM
Subject: fluency question

How much time, and how many times a week should one work on fluency to make progress? Also if a student has language problems what should the oral reading rate goal be? Is 80 to 100 wpm the average to be expected? My daughters lowest score is 26 wpm on nonsense words 40 on regular words and phrases, and does 80+wpm on sight words. So should I assume she should be able to do 80 wpm on nonsense words, and that she should keep reading them until she is at 80wpm?

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geodob
Joined Feb 06, 2005
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Posted:Jul 22, 2007 4:47:47 AM

I'm a bit confused with your concern about WPM for nonsense words?
Whilst they can be used for testing, but as something that is regularly practised? It could in fact create problems? Where they become confused in memory with regular words?

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auditorymom
Joined Feb 24, 2005
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Posted:Jul 22, 2007 11:25:03 AM

My experience is that with her sounding out nonsense words it makes her slow down and concentrate on the word and she needs that practice, because she still has not memorized some words. For example she misreads silk as slick and visa versa, but once I have her sound it out, she usually gets the word right. I guess my main concerns with fluency is how fast is fast enough to comprehend the text and how often should one practice fluency too see benefits?

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scifinut
Joined Jul 11, 2005
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Posted:Jul 22, 2007 2:03:02 PM

The more reading practice she gets, the more fluent she will become. I would not work on "speed" at this time but work on the basics of taking time to know what the words are (reading them correctly) and learning to get meaning from the text. Personally, I think too much emphasis is placed on speed at too young an age. This can create more anxiety over reading and it becomes a chore rather than fun. Kids who are pushed to read "faster" also have a tendency to skip words, miss simple words and "guess" at words. This will definitely effect how they comprehend the text.

If you really want to work on fluency, Read Naturally has a lot of information. http://www.readnaturally.com/ Its a program that is used in a lot of schools. I've used it with a number of students. The stories tend to be interesting and they have a mix of non-fiction and fiction. Reading and re-reading the text helps build word recognition and fluency.

If your school is using DIBELS, here is information on the offical web site. http://dibels.uoregon.edu/dibelsinfo.php This may give you a better understanding of what the benchmarks are.

There are a ton of other programs out there. It all depends on what your childs needs are.


[Modified by: scifinut on July 23, 2007 10:48 AM]

scifinut mom to: ms 16, bp/adhd/anxiety/complex ld mr. 20, add/dyslexic I hear and I forget I see and I remember I do and I understand. -Anonymous

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auditorymom
Joined Feb 24, 2005
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Posted:Jul 23, 2007 11:01:31 AM

My daughter is going into highschool. The middle school had done the Read Naturally program, but they do not use it consistently, more like just to see where she is at.I had e-mailed teacher to increase the reading grade level as a reading specialist said that we should, as my daughter was reading 3rd grade around 80wpm with 95% accuracy for more than a year,I have four recorded timings.Teacher e-mailed that she would, but on a progress report a couple months later I saw that she hadn't. After my inquiring about my wondering if they were only using the RN as a assessment they started to regularly time her and my daughter then complained about it,so I know they weren't doing RN consistently.Her final score was 120wpm at 4th grade level at 99% accuracy (I assume this was not a cold read score, and I had asked for them to note it, but they did not). The HighSchool did a cold read at a 4th grade level and my daughter was at 79wpm. Now the reading specialist says not to worry about reading fluency now, but comprehension and that was not letting her know the highschool fluency which was a 4th grade at 79wpm. The HS wants her to do the READ 180 for 2 periods and the program is not letting her progress as she is not meeting their benchmark in spelling and fluency. READ 180 has her at a 2.5 to 4th grade level, but reccomends she go back down to level one which is 1.5 to a 2.5 grade reading level. My daughter reads at a higher level, but is slow. I do not want her to do the READ 180 program, but would rather have her do the Read Naturally program.The readings I gave in my first post are from the fluency program I have at home. And from what I see she still needs fluency practice and need to figure out what I want to tell the HS.

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scifinut
Joined Jul 11, 2005
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Posted:Jul 23, 2007 5:04:46 PM

Okay, a couple of things come to mind. Is she getting Speech/Language services? (You mention she has language issues but not what kind.) Has she had a full educational optometric assessment? Has she been assessed for Irlen Syndrome? Has she had an Assistive Technology Assessment?

Continually sounding things out is going to make her a slower reader. This can be a real problem for kids with Dyslexia because they first have to figure out which way the letters go, which it sounds like your dd is having trouble with. (My son used to look at the first and last letters and then guess the word because of his dyslexia. My dh still does it. lol) My dd is still a slower reader she is getting faster as her confidence in her ability gets better.

We've used several things outside of school that have made a lot of improvement. Both of my kids have had visual therapy. My son had a great deal of success with it while my dd's wasn't so great. My dd is much more complicated in that she also has Irlen Syndrome which effects her ability to see words clearly, track effectively and makes reading a real struggle. Once we got things that could help her (Irlen Lenses, Assistive Technology - text to speech program), she made some amazing progress.

In school she does the Read 180 program which has really helped a lot with her spelling. Her fluency has also increased because she had gained confidence in her ability before working on her fluency.

It may be time to stop timing her reading and work on what is causing her to be slow. Figuring out that may take some time. Help her build confidence in her ability, not her speed. Speed comes with confidence. Help her find enjoyment in reading, which will also help her confidence and speed. (The book that really got my dd to read was Moon Called by Patricia Briggs. She really enjoyed it so reading wasn't such a chore.) Reading just for speed, fluency, etc. really makes it a chore, rather than the joy it should be.

scifinut mom to: ms 16, bp/adhd/anxiety/complex ld mr. 20, add/dyslexic I hear and I forget I see and I remember I do and I understand. -Anonymous

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jnuttallphd
Joined Jan 11, 2004
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Posted:Jul 23, 2007 5:24:06 PM

When reading at the fourth grade level in high school, high school is very much a challenge. Until your daughters reading improves you should seek some classroom accommodations. Here is a video presentation that talks about classroom accommodations.
You may wish to watch a online video on classroom/homework accommodations. This video presentation was developed by Susan Barton. You can view this video on her website. Click on the link "Watch her other videos on dyslexia" then click on the link for "Classroom Accommodations for Dyslexic Students".
http://www.brightsolutions.us/

Jim -- Michigan www.geocities.com/jnuttallphd

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auditorymom
Joined Feb 24, 2005
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Posted:Jul 24, 2007 12:33:58 AM

My daughter is in speech therapy she works on synonmyms etc.,grammar, and saying multisyllable words and repeating sentences. I think her main problem is the working memory in which she has a hard time remembering the first part of the word to put it together with the last part of the word. Sometimes she misses the in between. She often stumbles on the word. She has a very hard time repeating a sentence. I also feel the working memory is also why she is doing poorly on the READ 180. She can read better than where she is in READ 180,the STAR reading test placed her at a 5.4 reading level. We went to a vision therapist,but saw more results with an OG program. We do the RFBD recordings, we have a laptop with WriteOutLoud and Dragon Naturally Speaking at home.She does qualify for AT and will get help from the AT specialist in HS. Right now she is reading Anime books.Thanks for everyones input~

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jnuttallphd
Joined Jan 11, 2004
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Posted:Jul 24, 2007 8:12:56 AM

Glad to see you're using accommodations. I have several college degrees and still use all of these accommodations for myself. I still read slowly myself. I am dictating this response with Dragon NaturallySpeaking. I use audio books all the time. All the great technology we have available today makes learning more accessible to many individuals.
Jim -- Michigan

Jim -- Michigan www.geocities.com/jnuttallphd

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auditorymom
Joined Feb 24, 2005
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Posted:Jul 24, 2007 11:22:40 AM

"All the great technology we have available today makes learning more accessible to many individuals." This is so very true, unfortunately my experience with the her Special education teachers is that they don't know how to use them or don't know how much of a benefit it is. I have all the technology at home. My daughter never had enough assignments to use her DNS or laptop at school. I had all her science and social studies books on CD, but she was never given assignments to use it and never got a book to read along, as they don't really use the books. I was told she shouldn't go into a HS class because she couldn't read the text,then I mentioned she could get the book on CD and listen along.The teachers acted like they didn't think it would work. One of the special education teachers at the HS said she felt sorry for one of her students as he didn't have any assistive technology. It seems that is something she could have resolved. I didn't go into it with her as I was trying to make sure my daughter could use her laptop at school.It is unfortunate that the high school is not using the technology to its full benefit.Fortunately the AT person sounds like she will be my child's ally,so hopefully HS will work out.

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jnuttallphd
Joined Jan 11, 2004
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Posted:Jul 24, 2007 12:19:33 PM

Unfortunately, your experience is not an isolated one. Districts and teachers are very uninformed about assistive technology. They also act like assistive technology is "cheating" or not "learning". Most of the time I just ignored the school with their opinions when it came to my stepdaughter. Like you I simply supplied all of the assistive technology at home that I could. Most of the work happens at home when you're in high school. School is filled with lectures in the evenings are filled with homework.
Jim -- Michigan

Jim -- Michigan www.geocities.com/jnuttallphd

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anla
Joined Oct 01, 2003
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Posted:Jul 25, 2007 10:52:04 AM

Unfortunately, teachers are discouraged from recommending technology as a solution for reading/writing problems.

Read what I am writing/suggesting to help deal with the lack of transparency between the wriiten and sounded word at http://www.learntoreadnow.blogspot.com/.

Anita learntoreadnow

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geodob
Joined Feb 06, 2005
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Posted:Jul 26, 2007 6:44:39 AM

Auditorymom, I wonder if you've read some of my postings on other threads, about my research into 'Self-Talk'?
Where Self-Talk is creating the sound of words in your mind, without saying them out loud.
Where you are probably hearing the words in your mind, as you read this sentence?
Also when you are writing, you probably use self-talk to rehearse different ways to write a sentence.

But consider what problems you might have, if you hadn't learned how to use self-talk?
To imagine 'sounds/ words' in your mind?
Perhaps you could talk to your daughter about this?
Geoff,

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