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Dealt with A and C... As for red and blue pills... The only pills i am taking are the ones that help. I am not going to permit my body to be used by those people and their studies again.... And i am not going to continue to suffer being treated as other than the human being which i most definately am. Humans are not something that you 'study' with cold detachment.... We are not objects. We are living things. Someone needs to confront the issue, of the falseties of belief that the learning disabled are anything other than different, nor are we animals, nor am i behaviorally retarded because my mind moves fast, nor is what appears to be always what is, nor am i a lesser being... These "studies" to me seem like Hitler science. And i am tired of being locked in a concentration camp by the biasts of a clueless populous spurred on by the insecurities of the 'experts' who like school yard bullies must call people names to feel good about themselves. These 'studies' promote hatred and cruelty to real live human beings. And i for one am tired of letting myself be short changed because one one sees me through the scarlet letters LD stamped on my forehead. 1 in 5 children is now being labled. And to me being called learning disabled ADHD etc, its no different to my mind than calling someone black the N word. And everyone knows better as they should because it is cruel. I want my life back and i want to be viewed in the same way one views the non LD. I am properly medicated and i am pretty high functioning for someone LD and for someone not LD. I think this system of abuse needs to be changed. And i think, that as a growing population gets shafted this way so the drug companies can get rich, *IF* we band together like the african americans or like women during women's sufferage and become a very strong minority base, that we can change this crap.

Sorry, i lied was a and b. As for my age sex and location... Ummm a bit nosy aren't we?

Old enough to know better and too young to care. Over 18 and under 35. I am quite female, though i think that is an idiotic question as i don't see what gender has to do with really anything. And presently i am in Canada though i am originally from the Boston area, and only the dickens knows where i will be in 6 months. i move around alot. My fiance has a PHD and he does post doc research all over the globe. Your turn.

Roight.... Aside from the anatomical i don't see what the difference is. and i think i goofed again i meant B and C... sorry... dunno what is wrong with me... I dunno about all the new aginess in your post but i do feel those of us with LD were used and abused by the experts. Soooo anything ican do short of violence or actual damage to another human being i am quite thrilled to be part of. It wouldn't even upset me if some of these jokers were sent to the haague for crimes against humanity..... to be honest... It is time those of us who are legal stepped up and demanded our rights as equals. So if i have missed the point of your post lemme know.

That would be entirely correct. And it would be the experts who lead the assault. All the same, i am not into hurting damaging or mistreating anyone in anyway shape or form. What i am for, is fighting in a non violent way, to change this system and the laws surrounding it which are either not enforced or non existant, so that future children like me won't go through what i did. The damage is done to me already, it can't be undone, so it is no longer about me. It is about the future and those they will abuse tomorrow. How do we stop it before it happens? What can we do today to change the course this witch hunt is taking everyone in? Somehow, we must all, find a way to send a message one that is very clear, very peaceful and very non violent that we are human beings with thoughts and feelings and dreams and ambitions and hopes and fears. That we speak the same language and that the words they say and the actions they take violate our sense of security and well being. That those words and actions damage us as they would be damaged by them as well if they were the subject. The objective must always be one fueled by compassion, to channel the anger i feel towards society and the experts etc, seems you feel it to. We must always remember, that we are different, we are not cruel torturers. We are different, and one of our defining characteristics must always be our compassion and mercy and forgiveness. Channelling the anger into some format that actually effectively sends this message is what is important. Somehow, we need to become a 'minority' constituency like the african americans or like women during the suffrage movement. This is a political issue relating to human rights and civil liberties. The right to be treated like a human being and all that that entails. That is my opinion anyway.... As for the forgiveness part... well i will spend my life trying but i don't think i will ever succeed, all the same so long as those that i find most offensive just stay away or i stay away from them no sparks no problems.... And i am good. The sick part is the number of learning disabled in america makes up over 20% of the population and is growing... Wouldn't Hillary like that on her side??? Or Obama? But we allow ourselves to be over looked and ignored because we don't have the attention span to start a movement... It's time to change that.

I think part of the problem is we're so diverse in our abilities, ethnicities, ages, even religions that it is hard for us to get along well enough to come together as a group. We can be so different just amongst ourselves that we could be worse enemies and yet still a part of our own minority. Not all of us would want to stand behind each other, you know what I mean?

I think anyone claiming that God influences anything is so mentally ill they should be eternally locked away from society. But that is just my opinion. I think most people would disagree with me. And they have every right to hold what religious views they like, however, i would request that they not knock on my door selling their books of fiction. I find all too often, that they are very disrespectful of the rights of others to believe as they so choose and then demand that their beliefs be honored and in some cases have been known to get violent about it... But this is just the more extreme people of faith. There are also those who invite you to church you politely say no thank you and they never bug you or bother you about religion again... I got no problem with those people, as they issued a polite invitation politely and politely accepted a response of no. It is the ones that continuously push it in ppl's faces that i find insufferable. Many of them are very rational too and decent.... I just find that i personally want nothing to do with anything that has caused as much violence as "god" has over the course of human history. I can find no place for such a god in my life. I find it interesting too that when schizos hear voices they are told they are crazy but when many of these religious zealot sorts hear god they are sacred and holy and people actually are duped by that nonsense. Honestly my feeling is that every person who is on the other side of the line and is leaning towards religious fanaticism of any religion should be medicated and hospitalized for the good of human kind. killing abortion doctors, bombing cars, destroying trade centers.... holy wars... Anyone who thinks there is something holy and sacred in killing or maiming another person, is mentally ill. Them fictional stone tablets (I am a student of egyptology with several friends into biblical archaeology, the event of the exodus is a complete myth, with some *very* loose basis to be found in a far older event that occurred in Egypt before there were jews. The evidence clearly shows there were very few to no jewish people enslaved or otherwise living in egypt at the alleged time of the exodus, so how did a massive population of them exit if they were never there to begin with? What is more if they never exited, and Moses is believed to be atleast 4 people considering that he even narates his own funeral, how was he given by god the 10 commandments when he didn't exist and neither did they exit from egypt he was supposedly leading.) Also, it is quite technically like 13 or 14 commandments, not even 10.... But anyway, nowhere on those stones does it say "Thou shalt not kill, lest the one thou art killing be a predjudiced ignorant moron." It simply says thou shalt not kill. No exceptions to this rule of any kind have been stated. I am not christian, some of what is on those tablets seems rather lame to me.... But this particular statement, is actually echoed in every religion somewhere because it speaks to the very heart, the very core of what makes us human. This one *is* important to obey. As for not coveting your neighbor's spouse.... Well... So long as my neighbor has no children and is the initiator, then his bad and not mine in my opinion anyway... But the wiccans have a far better set of rules. They are too cool to have 10 of them. So instead they have only 1, "An it harm none, do as ye will." I have always loved that version of morality.

As for shooting people... Ummm that would constitute violence. Violence is not a solution to anything in life. It only creates more problems and compounds all the bad crap in the world. By becoming violent, by damaging or killing others we become exactly what it is that everyone of those ppl that mistreated us is. And we become exactly what they think of us as. That is something one must never become.

I am not weak. I am not defenseless. Neither is anyone else with learning disabilities. A killer is not something i aspire to be and no one in their sane mind aspires towards any such thing.

There is nothing good that comes from acts of evil Holding ourselves to a standard higher than cruelty is of fundimental importance. This isn't about getting even. This isn't about retribution. This isn't even about justice. This is about creating a way to be heard and respected and acknowledged and treated like someone who thinks and feels for future generations. Every LD person who behaves violently just makes it worse for the rest us who are just as hurt by the abuse, to claim they are predjudiced rather than legitimately concerned.... Shooters like the one at Virginia Tech give the predjudiced idiots more amunition to shoot the rest of us with. Why feed that? There are better ways, violence free to change this world. Becoming that which one finds evil is truly.... Beyond words in it's wrongness.

If you want a role model i would not look to the virginia tech massacre. The shooter is in no way heroic. Just damaged and weak and pathetic and mentally ill. Broken, in part by those around him, who were unkind.

I think looking to his holiness, the dalai lama, or to the actual actions and words of the alleged Jesus christ (though in my opinion probably a mythical person or a mixture of many people) who advocated peace and tolerance and humanitarianism, or to Ghandi in his peaceful actions, or even to the hippy generation all about free love peace and humanity and the arts and drugs and kick ass concerts you are choosing better role models...

Yes, we are victims of predjudiced... So was Martin Luther King. Try reading his works instead of someone who got a gun and behaved in a way that damaged and killed so many. There is nothing positive that can be gained by throwing one's humanity away. They can believe whatever they want about one's abilities and intellectual functioning and even their humanity, but we must all accept the simplest of facts as set forth by the ancient druids.

There are three things man is.
What others think he is,
What he thinks he is,
And what he *truly* is.

The day we allow the predjudice of society, to cause us to behave violently, is the day we give up on ourselves and our vision of ourselves and become only what they mistakenly believe us to be.
We are not them, and therefore, we are better than cruelty and violence.

I have never been one to care about human differences... I grew up in an environment in which they didn't exist. In highschool, i had this horrible teacher who told us to split into affinity groups... I was brought up in a korean zen school in the USA. Genetically i am irish.... But i have never been to ireland though i find their ancient culture fascinating. But i speak korean,verbally not as well asnymore as i speak english but back then, i would say it was pretty equal. I lived in a sangha full of people of every color froma ll over the world. We shared everything. Except everyone had their own small private bedroom. This is the environment my mother litterally gave birth to me in and where i lived till i was a teenager. I speak 6 languages. to varying degrees, some fluently and some only passably.... A couple are solely verbally spoken. So when told to get into my affinity group, please understand that the people from south africa who had lived with me as a child shared my kitchen and bathroom and life when i was young, and those from south america or asia or europe, were no less my family than my biological parents. Being told to get into affinity groups was like.... Having both my arms chopped off... I couldn't deny all these people that were family and had been so good to me and taught me so much.... Especially since asian philosophy was what i was raised on. I broke down.... I just started cryiing like a baby.... My teacher ofcourse asked me what was wrong... So being me.... I actually told him how what he was asking me to do was impossible and explained why in korean which made the actual asian kids in the room do a double take... So when i was done speaking korean i informed my teacher that i was my own affinity group. I don't see color... As for religion.... My personal faith is so loose and lacking structure that any and all religions rock as do those that believe in them, so long as they are not like mentally ill and violent in their fervor. Maybe these things do divide most people.... But to be brutally honest i must point out 2 fundimentally important things about both of them.

Religion was created by man as was god, to give people hope and to explain the world before we discovered science and how much we could actually measure and understand. It was created to unify people. Not to divide them. To remind them that all of us came into existance the same way and all of us will leave existance by the same means. We are for all our differences, humanbeings, and in that, we are all unified. And that is all that matters.

The second point, has to do with race. Which is an entire fiction if you are using it in relation to skin color. Science has proven an african american person is probably genetically much more like me, than someone of my own color, unless ofcourse we are speaking of immediate family. Race is a social construct, not an issue of skin pigmentation.

I also read ancient hieroglyphs, as well as both western music notation and that of the ancient greeks, and my old coptic isn't as spectacular as it could be, but it is bordering on passable. Did i mention.... I am dyslexic? Am i disabled? No. Am i different? You bet! Does my mind work the same way? No.... In the confines of the structure of a society created by the majority, it can on occasion be problematic. But i am not vulnerable and i refuse to be a victim. I am not broken, unless i choose to be. They told my mother i would never even read english... Which is quite laughable now... I think learning disabled ppl should always be encouraged to pee on the expertise of the alleged experts.

I find that christians, atleast the super religious anti abortion, bush supporters are far more closed minded than i am. I am not the one after all running around saying my way is the only way. I don't believe my way is the only way. We all must find the way that is best for our individual selves. Which is why i don't like having religion especially christianity forced on me by those with very strong beliefs. There are christians, who got the message and who believe deeply for themselves and still show others respect enough not to trample rudely on their faith.

As for the morality of religion just look at all the current blood shed and past blood shed that has happened in the name of god. I am very sorry but i will never be convinced there is anything moral about war over anything. But in the case of God it might as well be over which color m&m is most sacred. To me, that just seems irrational. I find all the hypocrisy distasteful. And what is more, the religion of Jesus is hardly that promoted by any modern church.... So, as no one is actually practicing the pure form of their savior's religion anyway, why bother with it at all?

As for morality, it is hardly faith based. It is far more based in culture. Which today does infact mean it is somewhat based on religion. But that didn't start in the neoliths. Hierarchy seems to have been in existance prior to religion. Which when it did finally make it's start was most certainly not judaic or even monotheistic in nature. Originally the rules of man and the hunter gatherer culture and their survival needs dictated morality. As society became more complex, faith was born. As a means of controlling the populace. The citizens began to question on what grounds the one with power had power, so to justify and control the people the leader ultimately came up with the concept of god. But more seriously it probably had alot to do with questions related to death. An oral tradition was created and stories were passed on lessons in survival what to do what not to do etc... And ultimately, shamanism was born the first real religion.

Even the solutreans, had morality as part of their culture.... Originally these rules that today are part of monotheiwstic religions originally many existed more to keep the peace in very small hunter gatherer groups... They became part of religion over time. As religion developed.

I happen to have very loose religious beliefs that boorow from Buddhism, and are largely based on ancient paganism and the occult beliefs of ancient peoples. I am not particularly restrictive as far as what pantheon or what cultural religious format i choose to follow because i recognize them all as the same thing. Explanations of the world we live in, teachings of survival, deification, of various bits of nature and the internal workings of the human mind and emotions. I am a practitioner of the old ways. I try not to limit myself and even embrace Wicca as a form of what it is that i believe..... But again, my beliefs are very loose.... They are not alone. Like the ancient egyptians and unlike the present day and ancient christians, i believe there are as many gods as there are people if not more. And each one is sacred and holy. however, i consider a more mild form of worship or the occasional acknowledgement to be sufficient to my personal relationship with my gods. And others are welcome to have a very different perspective. What they are *not* welcome to do, is abuse me by declaring my gods lesser, or in any way demons. They are not permitted to force me to respect their beliefs while they deliberately pee all over mine declaring them full of crap. They are quite sacred to me atleast... But this path is the one i chose for me. It isn't right for everyone, nor does it exclude anyone interested in following it. It is not overly 'active' or time consuming as the day to day life stuff, is the form for it... But i am not out there converting the masses. And i think those who are out there trying to are exceptionally rude, and should be some how legally forced to stop.

I have been held hostage on a train with over 20 other people by christians thumping their bible for over an hour and when i politely tried to excuse myself some guy 3 times my size put his hands on me and put me back in my seat and went on about Jesus.... The second time i was polite, and when he reached out to grab me to stick me in my seat again, i shoved him using all 5 foot 1 inchess of my tiny self and the entire 100 pounds in my possession and i "excused my wiccan a**" to the thunderous aplause of those who had been polite along side me for well over an hour. If you want to block your church doors and keep everyone in, by all means, knock yourselves out. If you want to put up a few fliers int he neighborhood about your church.... great!!! But seriously the door to door thing and the hostage taking thing is just *not* cool, for any religion.

I hate door knocking.... I am very polite, atleast in the beginning, but once i have said "thank you no thanks for the 8 hundreth time.... My patience wears thin.... I once politely declined to open the door to some mormons, i yelled out "thank you, but not interested." and went about my business they heard me and they knocked harder and so it repeated.... and they started pounding on my door like animals and i wasw still being very polite and by this time being all alone, i was very scared.... So when they finally bashed my door off it's hinges..... and broke it down, i ran for the bathroom with the phone and called the cops. These lunatics.... I mean religious men, then stood in my kitchen screaming through the key hole in the door to the bathroom the words of their sacred text....

There are normal christians too.... They may go to church once or twice a week. They may not believe in abortion but at the very least respect other's rights to choose. They may invite me to their church and upon hearing no thank you, they move on to other subjects, like normal rational people. They may ask me about my beliefs and tell me a bit about theirs.... But they may not be rude solely due to some religious superiority bullox that they happen to believe the fact remains we all share this earth. Who god loves more is irrelevant till we are somewhere else in which we don't have to share.

But to convince me of christianity i will need several things.
1. A giant cloud corpse shaped like a man found in stratta lower than the oldest human remains or remains of any kind, with a name tag around it's neck reading "god" that can be carbon dated to the right time period that science states that everything began.

2. The corpse of Jesus, also in the fossil record dating to the right time period name tagged with a pen in his hand and a bible on the desk under his skull, infront of him.

3. The ancient necronomicon, used to raise Jesus from the dead. carbon dated to the time of Jesus, with God ressidue all over it, proving it was God's miracle.

Short of those 3 things.... And in light of the many corpses of ancient versions of man that have been found... I am going to remain happily who and what i am. I hope you do the same and that it makes you very happy.

As for killing people.... Once upon a time survival of man depended in part on keeping our numbers stable and growing. Killing people, does no good and simply serves no purpose.... As for values.... Everyone's values are different, example, ancient nubia (the Kush) and ancient egyptians, ancient egyptians were not really into human sacrifice.... In some cases, when a high up person on the totem pole in Nubia died the ancient Kush would sacrifice *hundreds* of people. They were buddies, atleast initially had a nice trade relationship for a while.... Though their relationship went through all kinds of changes over time. I think, if those who created religion knew how it is used today and how it divides us and causes us to kill and hurt one another they would be disgusted and horrified. I would bet Jesus would crucify himself if he knew what he would cause later, if he ever really existed. I am still waiting for tangible historical evidence. And as there really is none...christians sticking their commandments everywhere and forcing their bible down the throats of those of us who hold a different belief seem all the more rude. And let me again be clear, not all christians do those things. Some are very nice people. They tend to see Jesus's message as i do. A call for all people to accept they are related and that we all share this earth and we should all be kind and accepting of one another. Got no problem with that variety of christian..... I do not apologize however for having a serious distaste and disgust for those bombing abortion clinics and killing abortion doctors while screaching about their pro-lifeness.... Just as i think the catholic church is mental for not promoting condoms, has the bavarian pope never heard of HIV??? And if sperm never hits egg then there never was a life. So what is the problem??? If they want to not get abortion because they think god wants them to be mothers at 15 that is their business and their choice.... Just as what pill they put or do not put in their body is their choice. However, diseases, affect a far larger population and everyone is a sinner so it seems at the very least the church should be promoting condoms. I am sorry i really do feel that extremist christianity, islam, and judaism are just... laughable. There is healthy belief.... And that is fine... But all too often mental illness gets labeled religion.

However, we are both LD. Exactly what difference our religion makes remains a mystery to me.

Oh come on. You are saying the religious *don't* do the same thing.... Are you forgetting the witch hunts of the middle ages, how about the one in salem village??? recently where i grew up there was this big stink about a bunch of priests molesting little boys.... You think that minister on tv making a mess for Obama is doing it for the lord??? He is doing it for personal gain. He has got to be making a fortune off his snake oil. The majority of the prison population is christian. Just yesterday on Dr. Phil there was a pedophile for christ..... Look at Warren Jeffs.... Our current president has the blood of thousands on his hands. More wars have been fought and more evil has been done, in the name of god than in any other name. Where was the church during the holocaust??? Right sitting over in left field while thousands were being tortured and killed rather than acting to help them. There is nothing wrong with the message of Jesus, that is if he was real enough to have a message..... The way it has been used through history and into the present day however would probably cause him to crucify himself in horror.

Religion was designed to bring humanity together. It was never designed to be used as a reason to separate people. If you have missed that point then you have missed the whole point. Jesus never judged anyone for not being christian. Wow...

As for what we have in common...
We are both in our 20s
we are both american
we are both LD
We have both been mistreated for that reason.
We have both been hurt by it.

But if some stupid arbitrary belief in a bunch of subjective mumbo jumbo for which there is no physical evidence is a more important difference than all that.... Then i don't think LD is why you have problems. I would assume it is religious intolerance and all the intolerance of others that comes with being an all superior extremist religious person. And honestly, i have no patience fopr that crap so buhbye.

Last i checked this was an LD forum not a debate on intelligent design and religion verses reality. I don't want to be offensive, to anyone, but please understand when it comes to evil and christianity, and the link between the 2 in the cases of extremism my feelings are *very* strong. We may all believe what feels right to us. That is as it should be, and if that means one is a hardcore christian, thats fabulous! Talk about God then with those in your church and choose not to take the pill or get an abortion. The fact remains however, that regardless of what you may think God wants, in the bible if you will notice when ever God is offended he deals with it quite well all by himself and he really doesn't need the radicals abusing others with their religion. If you wish to put up a couple posters for your church on the block on which i live, knock yourself out! Include the name and adress of your church and a listing of what you offer. But please, don't come to my door, to insult my personal beliefs and to tell me they are wrong, and i will stay out pof your church and your home along with my opinions.Simple respectful co-existance... Its a lovely thing but it only works when all involved live in accordance. Christianity regardless of what those of the more radical variety may think, are hardly the only religion in the world and they are no more entitled than any other religion. I find the loudness and entitlement and constant pushing of their beliefs down the throats of those who are not interested, to be rude annoying and evil. If you want to put up all your religious happy stuff on your house and in your yard including your commandments and if you aoll want to put it up in your church that is totally your business i really do not care. But the second it infringes on the public areas of society or is pushed rudely into my home against my wishes it is crossing a certain line. That line seems to be largely ignored by a far too large percentage of christians. However, let me be very clear here. I don't hate all christians. I just think they need to tone it down and stay out of the faces of those who want no part of it. But as for your point, every religion has it's nutjobs that are predators. However, it seems christianity has more of them than most religions do and even in a larger ratio than the number of christians would suggest. Largely because there is something about human narcisism and it's ability to consider others beneath it. IE my god is holier than yours because my god is the only god. As a pagan i accept more than one god and i generally get along with most people. Its just the hard core fundimentalists of the judeaic religions i have issues with at times. Because all they want is to convert me and i am sooooo not the least bit interested, please if you want to debate religion, understand i will not trespond further as i come here to talk about issues both personal and societal related to LD.