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Teaching Students with LD and ADHD

Passive Defiant


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Joined: Nov 03, 2005
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Posted May 09, 2002 at 3:36:29 PM
Subject: Passive Defiant

I have a very bright (IQ 140) ADD student in my 5th grade classroom that is off task frequently and sometimes refuses to do assignments. He is also very slow in completing assignments and constantly loses papers. We have an assignment book and colored folder system in place to keep all his assignments in but he often does not put his papers in the proper place. Help...I don't know what else to do to keep him organized or on task. We've used proximity control, loss of privileges, eye contact, etc...

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 10, 2002 10:47:28 AM

Have you tried a marble jar that he can fill everytime he does something good and when it gets full he can have a reward? I remember a very bright ADHD-tourettes child I used to work with. He would drive any teacher nuts, in 5th grade he had a one on one aide and what worked the most to modify his behaviors...was the marble jar on the principal's desk. He would be given a marble whenever he completed a task appropriately. His behavior changed, the teacher and principal were happy and he was a happy camper...Ironically, he was the one that did all the running around putting the marble's in the principals jar but it gave him a chance to run off excess energy and he looked forward to his reward. He earned several trips to Carl's Jr with the principal and he is doing great in high school now..

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 11, 2002 11:31:31 AM

I am no pro. ,but ,he may have some other processing issues that have not been properly identified and adressed. I'd refer him for additional testing. Just my HO, I have a guythat on the surface could have appeared that same way.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 13, 2002 10:44:27 AM

I'd only suggest looking through Mel Levine's book Educational Care. He might have some suggestions for you.

If assignments take him a long time to complete, it becomes understandable that he will balk at doing them. Is his work modified in length in any way?

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 14, 2002 1:00:00 PM

How about if you stop referring to him as "passive defiant" and start learning about the ways in which ADHD affects a child's ability to stay organized? WHen you say this child is defiant, you are blaming him for behavior that is the result of his disability. Shame on you!

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 15, 2002 10:24:31 AM

I agree 150%! I have found out the hard way that teachers anbd administrative that are not eductaed on this subject matter and refuse to comply with Federal Law do more harm to chidlren than good.
I have actually had teachers write to me and say things like-

When he CHOOSE to listen.

When he CHOOSE to apply himself

When he CHOOSE to pay attention

When he CHOOSES to behave.......

I went from trying to explain my child almost six years now..to telling the teachers and adminstrative staff-- they will understand ADHD kids when THEY CHOOSE to educate themselves on the law and our children.

The year 2002-
One of son's teachers called him a "peacock" in class the other day and then wrote to tell me about him makin "animal noises" in class that were so inappopriate. He just forgot to tell me that he embarassed the hell out of my son first then my son reacted to be humiliated.

I also had a teacher that SCREAMED at him in class "WHAT, are you ADD or what"? My son responded very appropriately I think. =) He said "No, I'm ADHD not DEAF"!=)
Mind you my son has had an IEP in place since December of 2000. No reason the teacher shoudl have known any of this.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 15, 2002 10:28:12 AM

Go to wrightslaw.com and look up ADHD.
Learn about ADHD and talk and LISTEN to the child's parents.
You can not fit this child into your "mold". You need to develop a way that will alllow you to accept that child and the "mold" he was born with.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 15, 2002 10:29:51 AM

An "ADD-toxic teacher" is:
A teacher who doesn’t "believe in" ADD, and refuses to accommodate you

A teacher who shows little interest in his/her students

A teacher who is rigid and inflexible

A teacher who is boring or non-creative

A teacher who is disorganized

A teacher who can’t be bothered to help you individually

A teacher who motivates through shame and criticism rather than praise and encouragement.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 20, 2002 7:25:08 PM


My child is a high IQ, ADHD student also. He is being homeschooled. The problems you are talking about stem from his ADHD. That is not something he can HELP!! Disorganization is always going to be a problem. My son takes so long to do anything that it is unreal! I have found that if I give him 1/3 the work for written assignments or sometimes less, he does so much better and he isn't frustrated. I give him as many oral things to do as I give written. It is very hard for some of these kids to think of all the stuff they need to, to do written work. Maybe you could try giving him more verba;l assignments. Also, I give my child the most challenging work possible and give him the answers and make him figure out how to solve the problem. That gives him something he has to think about and these kids thrive on complexity. If he can't figure it out I give him a few hints. If that doesn't get it I show him the steps and then give him some problems to practice. I know I can afford to do this since I am at home with him but it really wouldn't take up that much time for you either. Just some suggestions. Jan

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 22, 2002 10:51:18 PM

As some others have voiced, I also am concerned about how you chose to title your post. If you really do think that this boy is "passive defiant", then that, right there, explains why you're getting nowhere with him.

I advise reading everything you can get your hands on that's written by Dr. Mel Levine. His new book, "All Kinds of Minds" would be a good starting place. That book will hopefully get you to see this child in a different light. Once you can do that, your attitude towards him will change and you'll start to see ways where you can REALLY help him.

Regarding behavorial therapy such as the marbles in a jar, loss of privileges, etc., while that works for some ADD kids, there's many, many others for whom it simply won't work. If they could control their behavior, they would!

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 24, 2002 12:11:25 AM

After years of battling with this district-my osn is in 6th grade now- billions of meetings with school staff- so it seems..=) - in regards to dealing with forgetfulness, the school psychologist tol me a month ago I shoudl try sticy notes. Gee, what a revelation. I told him I should own stock in 3M. I have bought expensive palnners etc. PDA's and they get lost too.
Every chidl is differnet. Same your self and more importantly that child time an dtalk to teh kids parents. They have first hand knowledge of hwt does or does not work for this child.
It takes tiime but the positive effects will be so great in the end.
The fact that you are writing and asking how to help this chidl is an awesoem step in teh right direction.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 25, 2002 9:17:54 AM

Colored folders did not work for my two ADHDer's,until,the teacher had them use colored spiral notebooks. He passes out the stapeler and has them staple worksheets onto a page in the spiral,the last ten minutes of class was dedicated to the kids actively stapling the page,or placing the work in the folder notebook,not simply using the pockets.A color system is good in theory,but ,but you have to think of all the things that transpire after they leave your classroom

BTW,ALL the students used the very same organizational system,so my kid didn't feel singled out,and the other students were given help in this area too.

Reinforcing behavior is good,but all the strokes in the world doesn't keep an ADHDer organized. It has to be a simple system,it must take only a minute or two to do,and it must be used consistently.

Think about this scenerio,he is disheveled,he is in a hurry to move out of his chair,god he has sat in it way too long as it is,the thought of seating there for another minute could make him nuts,you pass out homework the last couple of minutes of class,or worse yet you write it down on the board the last couple of minutes.All he can think about is standing up out of his seat,okay okay I will write it down real qucik,he misses a few words,so what,he can figure it out later,I must get up,I must move around,his mind is screaming to him.The worksheet is passed out,as he leaves the classroom he grabs the sheet,the orange folder is where it belongs,but right now he can't seem to locate the orange folder,he shoves it into his bag,he'll find it later..... This is the scenerio. If you used some of your class time allowing for the orange folder to be located,or pass out the papers before the orange folder gets shoved back into the book bag,then he might be a bit more successful at staying organized.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:May 28, 2002 12:39:22 AM

Well I think the best thing is to do is let the student set his or her own goals if they keep up their assignment they will get what ever award they choose. Next you and your child need to come up with some type of plan to keep up with his or her work. Like if he have special games and you put them away a certain way then you would put his or her school work up the same. You need to see what your child is interested in and try ro do something that relate. Sometime if you let the students get involve in help making the rules they tend to follow them better.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:Jun 03, 2002 12:26:29 AM

Have you tried thumb screws?

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:Jul 13, 2002 3:23:51 PM

Nothing you mention there is "defiant", except perhaps doing some assignments. You have an image in your mind of the desirable student and this kid doesn't quite fit it, so you call him defiant. This is a negative image and will poison any further work you can do with him.

I happen to be a very good student with vision, coordination, and organizational issues, and my daughter inherited all of the same.
We do not always see where our bodies are in space, so we are sometimes apparently clumsy. We can move and speak very very fast when we let ourselves go hyper; this frightens many people and we have to learn to force ourselves to slow ourselves down and move gently. This takes up huge amounts of energy. We do not see things the way other people do and we cannot find things in a confusing background, so we are constantly losing things that are right in front of our eyes. If we do want to find something, we put it right on top or in the middle of our space. It gets messy but we find what we need. We have huge problems with our minds moving a hundred times as fast as our hands, so writing is a real trial -- the mind is at the conclusion while the hand is still trying to form the first word. It takes years to learn to run multiple tracks in the mind so that the program is run to the printer while the mind goes on with other things in parallel.

We CAN NOT use your organizational system. Yes, it would be nice. It would be nice if you could ski downhill with us too -- want to come to the top of Mont Tremblant and follow us down the super-expert trail with the warning of possible injury and death? We are about as ready to use your fancy multi-part organizational binder as you are to do the expert downhill ski trail. It is NOT a case of defiance or unwillingness; we just honestly do not have the basic skills to manage. I know, I know, you are saying to yourself "For God's sake, what skills does it take to use a binder?" A LOT. They just come easily to you so you don't notice (want to come skiing? My daughter' s been up in the Rockies since she was four . . . want to argue language? she speaks Spanish and French and Latin and has been reading since she was two . . . different things come easily to different people!)
To use your binder, first you have to *realize* that there's something to file (we don't see it and if it's important we want it in sight or in hand); then hold the slippery plastic binder on a slippery sloping desk (a nightmare) and if it drops you have an hour's work tidying up the mess, plus the public embarrassment; then you have to find the right section of the binder (difficult with our fine coordination and organizational issues); then you have to open the rings (very uncomfortable to our sensitive ears and fingers; the "snap" literally hurts my ears, and the rings pinch my fingers); then you have to line up the holes (fine coordination issues again, extremely frustrating); then close it, also painful; then repeat the whole difficult, painful, and distasteful task two or three times for the other papers which for some strange reason of your own you want separated in different sections. This whole affair really truly takes a huge effort from me and leaves me shaking and sweaty; I would rather walk a mile or write five pages. And then you get home and the work, instead of being where you can see it, is hidden somewhere in that hateful binder; often it's easier not to do it than to face all that again.

As far as doing assignments, what kind of assignments are you asking for? If the student has an IQ of 140 and is honestly working on that level, then copying a spelling list or doing a page of addition review drills or filling in a phonics workbook page classes as torture. A Grade 5 student with an IQ of 140 is very nearly at the average adult level. Tell me, are *you* going to sit down and re-copy that spelling list by hand? Are you going to write out all those addition drills? Are you going to do that phonics page? You *might* do it for your students, to give them a model to take home, but you only do it because it's your job and you care for the students and you're paid for it. What motivation does this student have? He knows the work, you know he knows the work, and you are demanding that he waste his time on this because it is some sort of ritual that you have to do in Grade 5. As an intelligent person he rejects that ritual. Why not try to find to make up some alternate assignments that give him scope for his abilities -- instead of copying a spelling list, he can help you make up a selection of words with all the diffferent ways of spelling the "long a": sound (apron, rain, day, they, weigh) from your reading book -- and then you can use this list with the rest of the class, so you and the student both win. Instead of repeating addition drills, he can prove his knowledge to you by using the review exercises at the end of each textbook section as a test, and he can work independently on the advanced sections, or when he finisheds those, on a book on problem-solving or critical thinking. Instead of reading two pages a day plodding through the reading, he can read a novel and write a review of it for you to use in building a class library list.

There's no one simple answer, but when you start looking at his strengths instead of finding a way to pick fights and blame him because of his weaknesses, you'll both be a lot happier.

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Anonymous
Joined Nov 22, 2014
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Posted:Jul 14, 2002 12:33:12 AM
Subject:PS

Both my daughter and I CAN be defiant, both actively and passively; there is quite a difference. When we want to defy something, you and everyone around will know we are being defiant. And it will generally take a minor earthquake to move us. Threats make us worse.
Nothing you said in your description of the student sounded anything at all like this; he sounds lost and frustrated, not yet angry. Please try not to make the situation worse by turning frustration into conflict.

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