tagline
WETA

Search LD OnLine

Get our free newsletter

advertisement

Forums
Parenting a Child with LD or ADHD

IQ Borderline but NORMAL speech skills


Author Message
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Other Topics
Posted Nov 05, 2008 at 11:03:21 PM
Subject: IQ Borderline but NORMAL speech skills

I am so confused, my 8 year old daughter recently had iq testing done and there were huge fluctuations in the scores...the highest subtest was 110 (logical thinking) and the lowest was in the low 60's (problem solving). Her iq ended up at 82 which is in the borderline range. She has been through 3 speech evaluations at school and always tests in the average range for language. I am so confused by all of this.....is it learning disabilities?

Back to top Profile Email
scifinut
Joined Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 550

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 06, 2008 12:14:33 AM

Its possible that she has an LD that is causing her composite scores to be low. You could request testing by an independent neuropsychologist to find out what her true IQ is and whether there is an LD or multiple LDs causing the drop in scores.

scifinut mom to: ms 16, bp/adhd/anxiety/complex ld mr. 20, add/dyslexic I hear and I forget I see and I remember I do and I understand. -Anonymous

Back to top Profile Email
annette10dance
Joined May 13, 2008
Posts: 91

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 06, 2008 9:09:14 AM

I agree with pp. Her LD can give her low scores. Our son's school used the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children (KABSC-2). Other places uses the Wiekert assessment.

The components for overall IQ are planning (story completion, pattern reasoning), Visual processing (rover, triangles, atlantis), Long-term storage and retrieval )atlantis, atlantis delayed, rebus), crystallized ability (verbal knowledge, riddles).

My son has low memory scores and low langugage scores. He will be on level 1 reading material for 1 to 2 years. Learning new material might be difficult.

Even though the overall IQ was below average, it just means that his memory scores are low. His LD contributes to low memory scores, therefore, the overall score is low.

The assessment is very lengthy. It is a picture of a moment in time as they do the evaluation. If you want re-testing for it, you can find other learning centers that do this type of testing. Out of pocket in NJ is $1200. It's expensive and not covered by insurance. Let us know what you decide to do.

Annette

Back to top Profile Email
demarti
Joined Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 84

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 06, 2008 12:47:55 PM

I highly recommend this article for you found on this ldonline site:

http://www.ldonline.org/article/6026

Which IQ test was done? There are alot of diff. ones out there. My dd's school did the WISC III (old now) and then moved to the DAS. Both these tests were catagorized into a Verbal IQ and Performance IQ - they then would take the average of both to get a full scale.

Typically if you scored low in the Verbal area you probably had language or auditory difficulites. If you scored low in the performance, these were more visual processing, visual spatial and reasoning type of subtests. If you saw subtest scatter in both areas, you need to really understand what the subtest asked you to do (ex. my dd scored really high in the perf area of the WISC III except for one subtest that turned out to require alot of language skills)

If there is a significant gap between scores (10pts?) then technically the lower scores are probably invalid due to either Ld or even issues with how the tester engaged the child- the higher scores are more representative to IQ level. My dd saw a HUGE difference in performance reasoning scores that I really think had to do with the fact that a man gave her the 1st test and was less patient than the woman who gave her same test 3 yrs later.

My dd had over a 30pt gap in her verbal vs. performance and I had run into an issue with the school using her fullscale IQ for qualification issues. The next time, I asked for just a performance IQ test, because of her documented language LD - that it would be more valid and they actually agreed.

re: your comment on language being in the average range? what test did they do? both expressive and receptive, (hopefully not just articulation!). What was her score on her language testing? 20% -50% is considered average range to the school. Let me tell you, anything below 50% is NOT GOOD, and 20% tile range is close to handicapped. The school will not be obligated to provide services, but you should seek private SLP, your insurance may pay for some of this. Also, many schools only provide services for articulation issues and not language processing issues(organizing thoughts, word retrieval, APD etc).

Back to top Profile Email
annette10dance
Joined May 13, 2008
Posts: 91

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 06, 2008 2:46:48 PM

My son's language scores are below 50 percent. In fact, it is lower extreme. He just turned 8 in September. He is in a self contained 3rd grade class and receiving speech and OT. He has an IEP plan for language goals and reading and writing goals. He is moving along grade level and doing well in math. His low memory scores are a double problem.


I'm sure the school will provide services with scores below average range. In addition, to private SLP or tutoring for reading.

Annette

Back to top Profile Email
bjs1359
Joined Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 06, 2008 6:48:47 PM

The language test the school gave was a screening time test for expressive and receptive language skills. She has had it the last four years and scored in the average range every time. What language test did your school give your child? They gave me no percentile rank they just said she passed every part of the screening.

Back to top Profile Email
annette10dance
Joined May 13, 2008
Posts: 91

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 07, 2008 9:15:42 AM

My son's oral language was tested as part of the overall KABC-2 test. There is another speech and language report from the speech therapist.

The testing includes: concepts and follows directions, word structure, recalling sentences, formulated sentences, word classes-receptive, word classes-expressive, sentence structure, expressive vocabulary and understanding spoken paragraphs. Then the Goldman-Fristoe test of articulation was done.

My son was in the average range for word structure, formulated sentences and word classes-receptive. He is below average range in concepts and following directions, recalling sentences, word classes-expressive, sentence structure, expressive vocabulary and understanding spoken paragraphs.

Annette

Back to top Profile Email
demarti
Joined Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 84

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 07, 2008 12:05:56 PM

Our school did the CELF (Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals) and the TAPS (Test of Auditory Perceptual Skills).

I had to request they do an assessment for both expressive/receptive language and an Auditory Processing Test- otherwise it would not have been provided.

However understand that schools typically will only perform a subtest of the various batteries the test provides. (ex. they only did 3 subtests for Receptive and 3 for Expressive on the CELF). Be very leary of 'screening' tests. Screening will only do a subtest of the subtests! Just because you pass the screening does not mean you don't have language issues or auditory processing issues.

Another example is that my dd scored 'within limits' on the TAPs because the subtests they did were not specific to her issues. I was told by an SLP friend that the CTOPP would probably have caught her issues better.

I took my dd to a private SLP for a full language and auditory processing evaluation(VERY COMPLETE and gave me much insite to her most difficult auditory challenges). It was $300(at the time my insurance didn't cover - dang, but now my insurance does, so make sure you check). I also paid another $100 for an OT to do a visual and motor evaluation and $200 for a full CAPD evaluation at our local university where they did CAPD research.

Case in point - the schools CELF and TAPS dd scored within normal limits, with short term auditory memory noted as a relative weakness. The private SLP showed handicapped in expressive language, also handicap in auditory memory (there were subtests that she did not get 1 answer right and could not complete the test) and then there was another area she was very low in, but I'm spacing off the top of head (this was 8-10 yrs ago).

The school actually did recognize the short term memory and they added this to her pullout services. However, what they did was work on giving her visual ques and recall that information. Well, she has no issue with this. Her issue was recalling information when it was presented completely auditorily. They indicated she meant/exceeded her goals in this area and moved her on. (so be careful what the school agrees to provide - is it really addressing the weaknesses).

We ended up doing all private services and lots of cognitive remediation programs. My dd is now in HS, and getting straight As (knock on wood) even in her advanced classes, and with NO accomodations or plan. It was worth the time and money we invested when she was young.

Back to top Profile Email
demarti
Joined Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 84

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 07, 2008 12:24:39 PM

Just remembered my dd's other key weakness - auditory discrimination. She had a VERY hard time disciminating the sounds in a word, esp. the end of a word. The LAC test is a good one for word discrimination. Her CAPD test also confirmed this and noted that she could only hear/process/understand 56% of information in a min. noisy environment (classroom), she was 100% in sound proof. Meaning background noise was an issue.

Here's something interesting I discovered re: the ending word sounds. My dd had spent a good part of her 1st 6 yr. with fluid in her ears every time she got a cold and it seemed like she had a cold EVERY month. They only occaisionally developed into ear infection so the Dr. never did anything. My neighbor is an audiologist, so I had her track her hearing and whenever she had a cold/fluid, she could not hear high frequencies. Interestingly, high frequencies are typically found in the ENDING sounds of the word. We also did alot of short term memory exercises (digit span) and I also saw a pattern that if she had a cold, she would actually digress a digit.

We put her on a food sensitivity diet and literally after 1mo. she didn't have another cold for a year! I think getting this under control helped her in her remediation.

Back to top Profile Email
bjs1359
Joined Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 07, 2008 9:43:45 PM

Thank you to everyone for the very helpful replies!!!

I talked to the SLP at school at she said that all of the SLP's within the district put together this screening by choosing parts of a number of tests and putting it altogether. Our IEP meeting is coming up in 2 weeks and I think I will ask the SLP to do more in depth testing.

I am driving myself crazy over this....would i be able to tell if she has a receptive/expressive language problem? She's 8.....wouldnt we have caught it by now if there was one?

The school is just really upsetting me, they labeled her with Developmental Delay....yet they say she has average language skills...does not make sense to me. Sorry i am venting on here, I appreciate all of your help:)

Back to top Profile Email
Mandi
Joined May 05, 2008
Posts: 424

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 08, 2008 7:07:38 PM

I agree with the rest, it could be LD. The best thing you can do is to get an independent evaluation. But even then, take whatever is 'discovered' with a grain of salt. I couldn't read really anything or spell my own first name till i was 10. The expert evaluators told my parents to just put me away. Unfortunately i understood every word everyone said verbally. They said i would never be more than a vegetable. I am an arachaeologist and multi lingual and musically instrumental.

Some people have an LD and have to be taught alternative ways to view things and hmmm... Wrap their brains around things. That doesn't mean they *can't* do the things that are hard for them. I am an epigrapher. I am also a severe dyslexic.

Just, take some deep breaths and always remember, it isn't so much a disability in learning as a *difference* in learning style etc.... That is really a very different thing than an unequitable ability to learn when compared to others. Those with LD, are often some of the most innovative thinkers. The reason for that, is that their creative mainds when taught what to capitalize on and minimize on and when given a direction to go to compensate, can create ways and systems for themselves as well to help themselves. It really isn't as bad as everyone who has a PHD on the subject says. I know, because i do what those experts don't do every day. I live it.

Getting the information is good hearing the experts out is good, but don't let them fill you with fear because a large part of that is just hype. In most cases in my experience. If i had a dime for every time someone said my LD would make me a complete vegetable for life.... (And they said this till i graduated with a degree in Archaeology an A- grade point average.... Oh and i didn't ask for *any* of the help i could have gotten due to my LD. I even tutored others. Soooo, don't drive yourself crazy over it, find out what they can tell you about what they do know about how your kid's mind works (that is worthwhile) and tell them to hold on the terror fear topping they add on top and remember your kids is the same kid as they always were. The one you loved dearly before you even had to ask the question. And Never forget, your child may have an LD, but they are not a disability they are who they are. They deserve to be treated like a person and an identity rather than like a disorder. While utilizing any tools and getting them any assistance to get them started along the route of compensation (a loooong road they will have to travel for the rest of their life.) A different road than most but leading to the same place, and sometimes to far more wonderful things.

Good luck!

Back to top Profile Email
annette10dance
Joined May 13, 2008
Posts: 91

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 09, 2008 2:22:39 PM

I agree with pp. The brain can overcompensate for other areas. My son is very creative too.

Even though his memory and retrieval scores are low, I know there is information in there. One time, we were going through the corn maze with questions posted. Somehow, he knew that an apple has 10 seeds in it and not 5. The information is in there and stored somewhere.

I see his difficulty with homework. Sometimes, it's like he never saw a math problem before. Other times, he zips right through it.

My son is a hands on learner. Some kids are auditory learners or visual learners. That's what the IEP is supposed to represent an individual education plan.

You should be able to see an expressive language disorder if she has that. It would be difficulty re-telling stories or events and a lack of vocabulary to decribe things. My son can't tell me what he did at school or at play. He would say "I don't know".

CAPD is usually a secondary diagnosis. So, there must be some other disorder present. Speech therapy or fastforword tapes can help that. If the testing at school is not detailed enough, then go for a private evaluation.

Annette

Back to top Profile Email
demarti
Joined Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 84

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 10, 2008 3:11:05 PM

What are they telling you she is developmentally delayed in? (i.e. academically, cognitively, motor?)

What is your gut feel on speech/language? My dd was like Annette's. She could not express herself verbally. She would try so hard to tell you a story and you just saw the frustration in her eyes when she gave us and said 'nevermind'.

What is your dd struggling with?

Were they able to give you her language scores? what tests/subtests did they use?

Back to top Profile Email
bjs1359
Joined Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 10, 2008 10:47:26 PM

My daughter was given the wisc which she originally scored a 75 on. Then we took her to be evaluated by a psychologist and she gave her the woodcock johnson....that was the test she scored a 110 on one subtest and the rest were 70s/80s. The psychologist said her iq was probably lower 80s and she was diagnosed as having learning disabilities.

She has had 4 separate speech screenings at school and passed every time. All the school says is that she is strong language wise and does not need therapy. How can she have a score in the lower 80s and have such strong language skills?? I hope that the iq testing is not quite accurate, she also struggles alot with ADD. I really feel like her language skills are good, the only thing i notice is that sometimes she will have trouble telling stories, other than that she communicates fine.

At school she is reading slightly behind the 2nd grade reading goal and is working maybe 6 months behind on math...though she struggles a bit with her math facts. Her written expression is probably her biggest problem. I feel like she is doing better at school than her "iq" would suggest....but i know i shouldnt put everything into those tests..they arent perfect.

I just need to stop worrying so much about her future and focus on her day to day growth. I appreciate all of your help, sorry, I am just so confused about all of this, to me it just doesnt add up.

Back to top Profile Email
bjs1359
Joined Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 6

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 10, 2008 10:48:48 PM

I forgot to add this....her current diagnosis is cognitive developmental delay.

Back to top Profile Email
geodob
Joined Feb 06, 2005
Posts: 265

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 11, 2008 4:53:27 AM

I would ask what her visual-spatial thinking skills are like? As this could be relevant?

Back to top Profile Email
demarti
Joined Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 84

Other Topics
Posted:Nov 18, 2008 4:29:51 PM

The Woodcock Johnson has both a Cognitive test and a separate Achievement test. The attached link gives a very indepth overview of each test. It IS very technical, but there are some good tables that show you what each of the subtests are comprised of and what kind of tasks they require (ex. is it a visual test or auditory test.)

It could be that your dd's cognitive delays are more 'visual' in nature vs. 'auditory' (or language)

http://www.iapsych.com/wj3ewok/LinkedDocuments/asb-2.pdf

I would suggest you compare the subtest scores that were done on your dd with the ones in the tables in that attached document. Hopefully it will help you understand more of what your dd's cognitive strengths and weaknesses are.

As stated in a previous post, even if your dd scores in the average(particularly low average range), I would suggest you get private help to improve those areas of weakness. You really want to be in average to the high average range.

Back to top Profile Email
BNHPSY
Joined Dec 16, 2008
Posts: 13

Other Topics
Posted:Dec 17, 2008 2:22:54 PM

I see a lot of people offering analysis of standardized test data on this forum, probably more than they are qualified to interpret. I would suggest that anyone having lingering questions about assessment results and what they mean go directly back to the person who completed the assessment or another professional at the school qualified to interpet the results for you. Ask as many questions as needed until that person has thoroughly answered your questions or request them to recommend a colleague or someone else who could explain it in a different way. People at the school want to help you and your child, but are bound by federal and state criteria. Staff at the school do not have as much freedom in handing out services as the general public would like to believe. They must use the scores they obtain through the formal testing process. I agree that parents should exercise their right for an independent evaluation if they question the results or the appropriateness of evaluation tools selected by the school

Back to top Profile Email