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Rod, could you please answer this question?


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Joined: Nov 03, 2005
Posts: 69140
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Posted Mar 14, 2001 at 12:00:01 AM
Subject: Rod, could you please answer this question?

Hi Rod,I read your posts a lot and I agree with everything you post - I'm PG trained. My question concerns a segmenting question you answered in an earlier thread. I have just realized why my 11 year old daughter has difficulty saying certain (usually long) words correctly is because of her segmenting. She reads grade level and can pronounce most words correctly, but those words she has a hard time pronouncing we have to work on saying the word over and over again until she can say it effortlessly. What can you suggest that I do to help her? Remember she has gone through RR and is basically sick of mapping, although she loves the program because it taught her to read and read well.Any simple exercises that won't overwhelm her would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!!

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Anonymous
Joined Jul 23, 2014
Posts: 69140

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Posted:Mar 14, 2001 12:00:01 AM

Might not be the segmenting, it is most likely multisyllable management. Many children and adults have difficulty with handling the pause inbetween chunks of sounds, retaining the meaninigless auditory chunks and then saying them with correct accent to sound like the intended word. They will add or drop sounds inbetween the chunks. Disaster becomes dister, or distant. If your daughter does this verbally the written word will help her to visually see the auditory pause if you chunk them for her. Have you continued doing additional multisyllable lessons from her Phono-Graphix material?

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Anonymous
Joined Jul 23, 2014
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Posted:Mar 14, 2001 12:00:01 AM

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aaOWcYsOBBy/.I agree with the above poster that it might not be segmenting, expecially if your child has already gone through the curriculum and is reading well. However, you are the only one that can judge that, since you're seeing her error patterns. One way to quickly check is to just have her orally segment some relatively challenging one-syllable words, such as "strict," "thanks," "pleased" and "scratched." (/s/t/r/i/k/t/, /th/a/ng/k/s/, /p/l/ee/z/d/ and /s/k/r/a/ch/t/ are what you're looking for her to say.) If she's missing sounds or not clearly identifying them, then you need to work on that, as it's an essential skill that gets in the way of both multisyllable reading and also probably her comprehension. (By the way, it's not intuitively obvious that poor segmenting should hinder multisyllable management. It would seem that proper blending would be the more important prerequisite, but the developers of Phono-Graphix claim that segmenting must be firmly in place before multisyllable work is commenced and I have found this to be true in the few cases where a child had trouble learning to segment correctly.)Can you come up with three or four examples of what she's done? That's usually the best way to figure out what's going on with her. For example, some kids read part of a word, realize that they're having some trouble, and then reach for a known word rather than continuing to work out the one in front of them. Once they get the other word in their head it is nigh impossible to get it out. That becomes most obvious when they will correctly say all five or six sounds, or all three chunks, for example, and then repeat the incorrect word anyway. An example would be /s/t/i/tch/..."strict!" The error correction is particularly important in this case. You have to point out that she said "strict," but there not /r/ sound in the word. After the second failed attempt, I will usually console them by saying something like "Oh boy, this one has really gotten ahold of you, hasn't it? You can see that the /r/ isn't there, but your brain keeps coming up with "strict" anyway. This is one of those times that it's really important that you work on this until it makes sense to you, so let's keep at it."And it is important. They are in the middle of a retrieval problem, and because of your error correction, it is perfectly obvious to them that they are making an error, but they can't stop making it. The key is to make it seem a challenge to them, rather than a source of frustration. That's why I tell them that they need to figure it out on their own and that it may be really tough. When they finally get the correct word, I'll heave a sigh of relief to empathize with the hard work they've just accomplished. And it is hard work, but it's work that they have to do themselves, because basically they're in the process of rewiring their brain (breaking down one set of synapses and building another set) to retrieve a different item then they have in the past. And they may have read "stitch" as "strict" many, many times prior to your discovering it, so there is a definite reason that "strict" is being retrieved.An equally long answer might follow for other examples, and might take a different direction, so try posting a couple of examples.If you're sure that it's her segmenting, and she's been throught he entire curriculum already, then you should be able to clean up her segmenting just by challenging her to accurately segment some words orally, like I suggested above. If she says /s/t/r/i/t/ for "strict," just tell her she missed a sound, that /s/t/r/i/t/ would be "strit" and say the word again.And thanks for the kind remarks....Rod

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Anonymous
Joined Jul 23, 2014
Posts: 69140

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Posted:Mar 14, 2001 12:00:01 AM

Thanks for your response Rod. I will try your ideas, but I'm pretty sure she will leave some of the sounds out - not all of the time though. Most of the time she "gets" it. She can read most multisyllable words correctly with little error correction. I'm thinking that the words she has the hardest time with are words she doesn't hear herself very often, so she's unfamiliar with how the word sounds. You know that the sound pictures can have different sounds and if a word is totally new to her she does have trouble with it. One of her vocabulary words for Social Studies was Parliament. She had a hard time with that word at first and I think it's because it's not something most 5th graders say or hear (except in SS). She did master how to read the word correctly and she has no trouble now. We'll keep plugging along!Again, thanks for your response.: I agree with the above poster that it might not be segmenting,
: expecially if your child has already gone through the curriculum
: and is reading well. However, you are the only one that can judge
: that, since you're seeing her error patterns. One way to quickly
: check is to just have her orally segment some relatively
: challenging one-syllable words, such as "strict,"
: "thanks," "pleased" and "scratched."
: (/s/t/r/i/k/t/, /th/a/ng/k/s/, /p/l/ee/z/d/ and /s/k/r/a/ch/t/ are
: what you're looking for her to say.) If she's missing sounds or
: not clearly identifying them, then you need to work on that, as
: it's an essential skill that gets in the way of both multisyllable
: reading and also probably her comprehension. (By the way, it's not
: intuitively obvious that poor segmenting should hinder
: multisyllable management. It would seem that proper blending would
: be the more important prerequisite, but the developers of
: Phono-Graphix claim that segmenting must be firmly in place before
: multisyllable work is commenced and I have found this to be true
: in the few cases where a child had trouble learning to segment
: correctly.): Can you come up with three or four examples of what she's done?
: That's usually the best way to figure out what's going on with
: her. For example, some kids read part of a word, realize that
: they're having some trouble, and then reach for a known word
: rather than continuing to work out the one in front of them. Once
: they get the other word in their head it is nigh impossible to get
: it out. That becomes most obvious when they will correctly say all
: five or six sounds, or all three chunks, for example, and then
: repeat the incorrect word anyway. An example would be
: /s/t/i/tch/..."strict!" The error correction is
: particularly important in this case. You have to point out that
: she said "strict," but there not /r/ sound in the word.
: After the second failed attempt, I will usually console them by
: saying something like "Oh boy, this one has really gotten
: ahold of you, hasn't it? You can see that the /r/ isn't there, but
: your brain keeps coming up with "strict" anyway. This is
: one of those times that it's really important that you work on
: this until it makes sense to you, so let's keep at it.": And it is important. They are in the middle of a retrieval problem,
: and because of your error correction, it is perfectly obvious to
: them that they are making an error, but they can't stop making it.
: The key is to make it seem a challenge to them, rather than a
: source of frustration. That's why I tell them that they need to
: figure it out on their own and that it may be really tough. When
: they finally get the correct word, I'll heave a sigh of relief to
: empathize with the hard work they've just accomplished. And it is
: hard work, but it's work that they have to do themselves, because
: basically they're in the process of rewiring their brain (breaking
: down one set of synapses and building another set) to retrieve a
: different item then they have in the past. And they may have read
: "stitch" as "strict" many, many times prior to
: your discovering it, so there is a definite reason that
: "strict" is being retrieved.: An equally long answer might follow for other examples, and might
: take a different direction, so try posting a couple of examples.: If you're sure that it's her segmenting, and she's been throught he
: entire curriculum already, then you should be able to clean up her
: segmenting just by challenging her to accurately segment some
: words orally, like I suggested above. If she says /s/t/r/i/t/ for
: "strict," just tell her she missed a sound, that
: /s/t/r/i/t/ would be "strit" and say the word again.: And thanks for the kind remarks....Rod

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