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Parenting a Child with LD or ADHD

Understanding the Results

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Anonymous
Joined Jul 28, 2014
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 8:24:43 PM

Please note that this completely confirms what Anitya is saying. Subtest scatter is a sign that there are significant strengths and weaknesses..it does not invalidate the results! The subtest scores are very valuable in helping to identify various problems...scatter is the red flag that one must examine the individual subtests as opposed to just looking at composite scores.

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 8:35:56 PM

Ohio,

I am sure Anitya does not need me to defend her, but I just have to say that you might in the future want to think about the tone of your messages before you click on the post button. Anitya is one of the most caring and knowledgeable teachers on this board, and to speak to her in this manner is totally uncalled for. The competent teachers out there need encouragement, not sarcasm and personal attack.

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 8:45:22 PM

I thank you all for your inputs, thoughts, beliefs, and am going to be spending my weekend really trying to decide where to go from here.

The psychologist has said in essence something is happening. It's very similar to his dad - dad has learned to compensate, therefore, dad is probably the best teacher. Dad on the other hand firmly believes there is <something out there>

The Sp. Ed. has a program which deals with morphemes which he feels our son could benefit from, but he (psych) doesn't see him as eligible for Sp. Ed. and therefore, not eligible for the class either.

As parents, we don't necessarily agree with pulling from general class, but are looking more for accomodations and modifications for him. It's pretty obvious he is a VERY verbal learner. I think it's interesting that he his Reading Fluency is 4.5 GE, yet the Spelling is 1.8 GE.

It's also frustrating to see that his teacher's comments included a statement that she doesn't believe he studies for spelling tests. Ughhhh. Verbal drills at home are almost always correct spelling. It's when he goes and puts in on the paper that it gets lost. Verbally he has vowels in words, on paper many vowels will get left out.

Anyway, again I say thank you. I love the fact I was able to get so much dialogue. The more I get, the more I learn, the more I understand!!!

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 8:50:58 PM

Janis,

I have been fighting with anitya for several years now. I assure you I do think before I click and I ment every word of it.

If you dont like what I have to say feel free to ignore me and my posts. I wont be offended. I am not here to argue with teachers or parents. I am here to assist the parents who want assistance and I will even ask others for assistence when I need it.

I will not however watch my tone, if you dont like it, skip my posts.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 8:53:01 PM

Dana,

I think I already mentioned Audiblox to you earlier for the visual perceptual issues, but you might want to look at AVCO spelling, too. http://www.spelling.org/Default.htm

There are also people here that recommend developmental vision exams. Rod has given the web-site to find a developmental optometrist before, but I don't see it at the moment.

Janis

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 9:01:15 PM

My oldest son did not have an IQ split or discrepency between achievement and ability and did not qualify in one state but did in another due to "slow Processing speed" interefering with ability to learn. His verbal IQ was 92, his performance 100, his achievement scores ranged from 78-97. The new school reviewed the test results and qualified him on the spot. He received LD math, writing, and reading. They also did language testing on him and found him to have a language disability (scored a ss of 75), they seemed appauled by the old district. He has made great progress with his new placement. He is looking forward to taking some non-LD classes next year. I think each state and each district for that fact interupts things a little differently. Kind of reminds me of how our military AFI's are interputed--you can get a different answer from different people reading the same thing. Life is like that.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 22, 2002 11:50:58 PM

Anitya,

A population with 25% with a split in in PIQ/VIQ of 15 or higher seemed high to me. I came up with the following:

Introduction and History of Intelligence Testing (from Kamphaus, 1993)

http://www.coe.tamu.edu/epsy/faculty/CRiccio/Riccio-SPSY612(Master).html

Determine if the Verbal Performance Discrepancy is statistically significant
Overall values for V-P IQ discrepancies are 11 points (.05 level) or 15 points (.01 level)

*********

This would indicate to me that having a 15 point difference is 1%, Correct?

Helen

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2002 6:38:07 AM

Here's a thought- your son's basic writing skills are on the weak side- but his basic reading skills seem to be adequate for his age. It is hard to tell because they didn't do the supplemental battery tests from the WJIII that give those clusters. Irf you want more information regarding this- ask them to do the Editing, Spelling of Sounds and Punctuation/Capitalization tests, along with Word Attack. This will give you a couple of things.

1- You will have a basic reading skills and a basic writing skills score that will give you/the teachers more detailed info on what happens as he tries to produce mechanically correct writing-especially compared to his reading.

2. Spelling of Sounds- along with the other scores- will produce a clinical score called Phoneme/grapheme knowledge which is exactly what it sounds like- knowledge of how letters and sounds fit together in words.

This should not be a big inconvenience for the school- we are only talking less than an hour of testing and five minutes to run the sres through the scoring program. I don't know that it will do anything regarding eligibility- and it doesn't sound like that is the foremost issue for you anyway- but if you are looking at accommodations and possible help at home then more info is better:) I can't imagine that they would give you too hard a time about it. Good luck.

Robin

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2002 11:19:59 AM

Ohio, are you the same person who posts under "Mama Maria" on another board? If you are, we have plenty of reasonably good-natured agreements and disagreements. This is about getting accurate information to parents and educators, not about trying to be the person who is right. I had an understanding that was in conflict with your understanding. This particular information could be useful to a parent, but the parent needs to take the correct information into the IEP meeting, not hearsay. I do not specifically accuse you of hearsay, I am also susceptible. If you are "Mama Maria," than I have found many of your posts to be very "right-on," whether or not I agree with all of them.

I have read, over the last several years, information here and there, posted by parents and sometimes teachers that is just plain incorrect. We cannot do this job unless we have our facts straight. I merely wanted to clarify this question. We still don't have it clarified, as far as I can tell.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2002 11:25:29 AM

Helen, I think you are right that 25% is high. I think our psych. was using an example. It is not at the 1% level, however. I have not myself had statistics, so I don't know that this means that one percent have this split. I do know it is a statistical term. When I read studies I read this all the time, there is some statistical level where results are considered significant. So, if a study is looking at a particular treatment for dyslexia and the researchers have a control group and an experimental group. They administer the treatment to one and no treatment or innocuous stuff to the control, then they crunch the numbers to find whether or not their results have statistical significance, they use this kind of language. I don't think in these cases it directly translates to percentage. You know what, I'll ask again next week. We should understand this.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2002 11:32:44 AM

The criteria for placements does vary from state to state. This is one possible explanation.

Generally we cannot qualify based on a processing deficit alone. Consider this scenario: a person has a specific processing deficit in an area. However, this person is progressing at a rate commensurate with ability and is thus compensating for the deficit.

My personal current theory is that many of us do have uneveness in processing skills. If we are strong enough in some processing areas, we have the tools to compensate for a weakness and still progress. I don't think most of these kinds of students should be in special ed. If they suffer from poor teaching, they may end up in special ed.

In my opinion, the majority, if not all, of the LD students I teach have multiple processing deficits. They have poor phonological awareness, weak rapid naming, memory deficits, sequential processing.......... this places these students in a particularly risky situation. They don't have enough processing strengths to compensate for their weaknesses. These students truly need SPECIAL education.

In the case of your son, the first school district may have been blatantly WRONG, for any of several reasons. Or, the criteria may have been just enough different to permit placement in the new state.

However, I am glad to hear he is doing well in his placement. It was a good call!

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2002 11:42:41 AM

Thanks for your interesting posts. I am glad your son is progressing so nicely. Clearly, therapy is very much inline for many youngsters. Even when the IQ is split and I may argue against the rather abstract idea of suggesting the true potential is the higher score, we still often have a child who needs special education.

My concern that i have stated to our psych. (we do use the higher of the two WISC scores for eligibility cases) is that we not mislead parents into believing that the lower score was just a fluke or a mistake and that special education will fix this fluke, the discrepancy will vanish and the child, the parents and the teacher will live happily ever after.

When the tests were valid (sometimes psychs. have a good reason to state right in the psych. report that there was something about the testing situation or the child that day that makes them use caution in interpreting the results) the same pattern will probably be evident three years later at the triennial. To the extent that I have seen these kinds of patterns in my job, the discrepancy really does not change.

I tend to think, I am really keen on neurological research, that there are areas in the brain that process certain kinds of stimuli or data and that it is quite possible for basically normal people to have specific areas of the brain that just don't work as well as others. Research sometimes finds more or less chemical activity in certain parts of the brain (ADHD), unusual size of a part of the brain (dyslexia), unusual patterns of cells, etc. The current questions seems to be what can be changed via external therapies and what may not change appreciably, even with intensive therapy? I think the future of special education will require greater understanding of that very complex organ we call the brain.

Thanks for "listening" to my tirade and for sharing the discussion.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 23, 2002 11:57:55 AM

Thanks, Socks. This is exactly why the WISC is a really good instrument to begin a psychoeducational assessment with. You are correct, I believe, that areas that come up as unusual are those very areas that should be investigated very specifically with a processing instrument that hones in on the specifics. A good psych. will use this as the "jumping off point" in the assessment and this data will start the process of selecting the remaining tests to be administered.

In my school a low verbal relative to performance will generate a language assessment. Other low subtests will generate certain tests of subtests. The psych. I work with (whom I respect and find to be very thorough and to oftentimes rival private assessments) will not use the same instruments on every child. She has many instruments at her disposal and will select those that can give more indept information on certain areas of processing.

On my, not all private psychs. give you what you pay for crusade, last year we received a private psych. report from a parent who was enrolling her daughter. The psych. had given a minimal number of tests and had diagnosed (totally unsubstantiated by any test results) a language disorder and recommended services. When the language specialist started to talk to the child, she found a child who was quite responsive, totally comprehensible and able to speak to a topic. The private quack had found average language scores on one test and had gone on to "diagnose" a language disorder based on the child's complete inability to respond to basic questions and tendency to give bizarre responses. All in all, a worthless eval, unless what the parent wanted from the private quack was eligibility, she got it but we didn't buy it, based on our more complete assessment.

I am off topic......... this is a classic example of why school districts can be persnickety about private evals. We don't want quacks drawing conclusions from incomplete data, we need thorough evaluations. Even in my resource room my informal assessments of reading usually involve the administration of several measures. To rely on one test to draw a conclusion would be irresponsible.

Finally, am I chastising all private evaluators? Absolutely not, many private psychs are not quacks and are reputable and competent. Am I endorsing all district evals? No, I have received horribly incompetent looking evals. from other districts over the years. I am fortunate to work with a person who believes in being thorough and fair.

I probably mentioned last week's case. We had a child who at first did not meet eligibility. I e-mailed the psych. that my additional informal assessments looked suspicious and I thought we might want to place the child. She worked her tail off last week, giving several additional instruments, checking and cross-checking certain processing areas (I suspected "rapid naming") to find a processing deficit we could hang eligibility on.

Finally, even when we can find a deficit in an area, if we cannot link the deficit to learning deficits, then we won't establish eligibility. If there is not a significant discrepancy, we cannot usually argue that the identified deficit is negatively impacting educational progress.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2002 10:04:21 AM


My educational evaluation experience for my two boys was a nightmare. The public school system in which we live has never done an adequate job of taking the WISC and expounding in it. I am glad yours does. I will also say ,after two independent evals,that private evaluators can be just as poor about doing the evals.

When doing the eval, simply for reasons of eligibilty, is where I think the biggest problems lies. The very best educational eval. my kids had, was psychological along with classroom based assessments,and achievment testing. When we could clearly see what strengths they relied on and what weaknesses hurt them in the classroom specificly, is when we had the best assessment of what ,when and how to accomodate their learning styles. Aside from finally coming up with a good assessment,this private evaluator finally understood the criteria the public school used. VERY important,because there is a difference,even terminology, from private to public sectors. Ie: my boys are diagnosed dysgraphic,in private school,but were called written language disability in the public school,neither tell you how to accomodate them or teach them,it is as valuable as the teacher who understand the person behind the label.
They are not numbers and scores,they are individuals,they have potential,they can go way beyond the scores,because statistics are just statistics.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2002 6:38:03 PM

Thanks for your response. I would also like to add that I think the best evaluators have taught the population the most frequently evaluate If you are evaluating LD, having taught LD over time for several years permits an indepth understanding that you cannot get with just an advanced degree.

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2002 10:01:10 PM

I certainly agree with that! The Neuropsychologist we use was a special ed teacher before she went back to school for her PHD. She did that specifically because she sat through too many IEP meetings where people brought in reports that said waht was wrong with the child, but gave no practical suggestions how to help the child in the classroom. The report she did for us was not only thorough in terms of testing, but very detailed in terms of exactly what he needed in the classroom.

Karen

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 24, 2002 10:35:32 PM

I found the following article:
Psychological Report Writing
The 7-step Approach to WISC-III Interpretation
http://www.byu.edu/~psychweb/bnc/assess/a1note9.htm

Take a look at the article because it looks like it is saying that 15% of children have VIQ-PIQ discrepancy of 19-21 points, 10% have 22-24 points, 5% have 25-29 points, 1% have discrepancy of 32+ points.

Helen

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Anonymous
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Posted:Feb 25, 2002 12:22:17 AM


right,having a first hand understanding of what the classroom is doing and what needs to happen is extremely helpful. Besides giving practical suggestions.

In the long run all the test results in the world didn't adequately reflect neither the depth of my kids problems or the extreme strengths either. Labels aside THIS is what helps a kid learn and enjoy learning.

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