21-year old - can't get a date

I was a late bloomer too. No dates in high school and it wasn’t until my sophmore year that I awkwardly stepped outside of myself.

One thing he has going for him is being on a college campus. I assume he lives away from home and in an apartment or dorm. If not, that may be part of the problem (living at home).

Rather than focus on dates or meeting girls I’d suggest that he focus on joining groups doing things he likes (but not necessarily chess club or recreational math club).

When I was in college I got seriously interested in rock climbing and hung out with a university group as well as the local parks and rec group. There were tons of girls/women in both groups and just hanging out with them and having shared experiences was a great way to get started learning how to socialize and just hang out.

The problem with “dates” is that they’re a formal ritual. If you lack experience and self-confidence they can be torture because you’re wondering: should I open the door? Pay the check? Kiss her now? etc. and if you have no experience you’re shooting in the dark.

Something has to prime this pump and I would say that shared social experience outside of the context of “dates” is safe and a lot easier.

In time, he’ll meet some girls he likes and eventually he’ll be doing things with a smaller sub-group of girls and boys and eventually one girl.

I have a cousin who is absolutely drop dead beautiful but she has no idea. She also talks very fast, is very smart and has had no luck meeting guys. She’s a lot older than your son and the older she gets the more anxiety she feels about being a loser.

I think it’s like investing: diversification is the best way to go. The more groups he joins and has experience with the more experience he will have socially. As he gets more comfortable socially it will be easier to be around girls and eventually get to know one well.

Oh, one last thing:

“Do you want to go on a date with me?” NOT

“Hey, have you seen the Lost in Translation? No? Want to catch it sometime?” YES

I’ve noticed that dating is done less and less often these days. Young people today don’t date like we used to years ago - they seem to go out in groups. I don’t think your son is alone in his ‘no-dates’ status.

And girls today can be very independent. They used to say girls were going to college to get their “Mrs.” degree but no one says that anymore…

He needs to meet some girls interested in math and engineering. My own son’s school is an engineering school and there are many women engineers there. He might also practice his social conversations skill a bit - slow down the rate of his speech so the next date he has doesn’t end up another disaster. You’re aware that he talks too fast but is he aware of that?

Is there a chapter of MENSA in your area? Look up MENSA on line and see if there’s a nearby chapter. It would be a place to meet other bright people including women.

Good luck.

The Chef likes the ladies and the ladies like the Chef. The Chef has some datin advice for your male child. The ladies like a guy with a nice car. The ladies be diggin dude with a cool ride. The ladies also be likin that sweet talk and the Chef has been known to be using the old mush mouth on the ladies to great effect.

The ladies like to be romanced and wined and dined. The Chef would not agree with havin your boy lookin for an intellectual gal. Too bad the Chef didn’t live close by. If the Chef did he’d be givin your boy advice on bein a fly chick magnet like the Chef.

One more thing, The Chef would reccomend that you buy your boy a bag of the sticky green and twist him up a fatty to smoke before he approaches a fine lady.

Ladies wanna have fun on a date. Your boy should be askin them to be doin fun stuff that could lead to makin sweet love on their date. Sounds like this boy is a virgin and he be needin to pop his cherry so maybe a little love for hire may provide some impetus for him to chill when he’s around the ladies and he would feel more relaxed to discuss non intelectual stuff and slow down his motor mouth.

Thanks for the advise thus far. Please keep those posts coming. To the Chief..the boy does have a nice car. As a matter of fact, he has three nice cars, one of which is a Porsha. So, nice cars and good looks are not the problem…he has both. :D

Again, please keep the posts coming. This young man is too special to give up on. He is a really good person and deserves to meet some special, and his inability to find a successful relationship is very distressing to him.

Thanks!

Hey Chef-mon,

You readin’ the description of this dude? He not quite like you mon, he more nerdy. Yo, he need help feeling less self-conscious, not more.

Mensa… hello, are you saying that only “smart” people can date “smart people? I’m not sure I agree with that. My wife is quite a bit smarter than I am (probably mensa material but she would never join or want to be classified in that way) and we get along just fine, have for quite a long time.

Two things strike me about this:

1. LD is a label that doesn’t seem to help people get dates, why might “genius” or “mensa member?”

2. if one has an open mind, one can actually enjoy and maybe even date people who are very different from one’s self. Enjoying differences is part of growing up and being in the world. It always strikes me odd that some people feel tossing a bunch of people with LD together is necessarily helpful. Sometimes it helps to mix things up so you can experience people who have different stuff going on.

I do think it’s a wonderful thing to find out one is not alone and to share “war stories” with other LD or “smart” people but I’m not sure a self-conscious guy wanting a date wants that kind of filter.

No filter, just a fun time with a young woman of any kind to lead toward less self-consciousness.

If he likes to talk about science and engineering, then yes, going to Mensa or meeting girls in his classes is definitely the way to go. I have a math degree and a science degree myself, and if I were his age I’d want to meet him. Shared interests are a good foundation for a relationship.

You can’t make yourself into a completely different person and it is foolish to try (although especially when you’re young, it’s good to sand down some of the rough edges.)

A good thing to do is to look at his leisure interests and work from there. Is he, like many of us techno-types, a fan of science fiction and fantasy books, or of movies, or does he do any kind of building/crafting/modelling, and so on? There are clubs — science fiction book clubs, movie clubs, model railroad builders, etc. etc. A lot of my friends met partners there. Of course the male-female ratio tends to be lopsided and there is competition — but the things that make him not fit in other places are an actual benefit to him when he is on his own turf.

If he is in science/engineering college, doing things around campus is another way to meets girls who share his interests; a lot of my friends met while working in the cafeteria, for example. Of course if he does any sports or is willing to learn, taking a leisure-time class or joining a club is another good way to meet people.
He can tutor other students in math and in this way meet other students that he helps, as well as the other tutors. I made lots of friends this way.
Just living on campus in a coed dorm is a great way to meet people too.

Once he meets a few girls who share his interests, then it is very easy to have a non-date — just go to a movie or sports or group activity together. This can develop into more formal dating as time goes on. That’s a lot easier than trying to do everything at once.

Mensa… hello, are you saying that only “smart” people can date “smart people?

No. I am saying if he’s ‘nerdy’ - the word you used about him, he might find some others who are more tolerant of the things you’re calling nerdy about him. If liking math and science makes him what you call nerdy, he’ll find other people who like math and science at Mensa.

1. LD is a label that doesn’t seem to help people get dates, why might “genius” or “mensa member?”

Mensa is a national club. It’s a place all over the country where one could meet people who also like math and science.

I beg to differ about Mensa.

============

“Mensa was founded in England in 1946 by Roland Berrill, a barrister, and Dr. Lance Ware, a scientist and lawyer. They had the idea of forming a society for bright people, the only qualification for membership of which was a high IQ. The original aims were, as they are today, to create a society that is non-political and free from all racial or religious distinctions. The society welcomes people from every walk of life whose IQ is in the top 2% of the population, with the objective of enjoying each other’s company and participating in a wide range of social and cultural activities.”

===========-

If you use Mensa as a filter for meeting people then you’re limiting yourself to only folks with exceptionally high IQs.

There are two issues here that strike me as interesting:

1. IQ being talked about as a filter on the LD Online discussion board. Not that being LD and being smart can’t and don’t coexist, but the idea of a measurement and label being used to filter friends… strikes me as odd, and limiting;

2. If there is such a thing as “general intelligence” that all people who are “smart,” having that in common, will find each other interesting.

It would seem to me that styles of thinking and self-expression, rather than just “horsepower” would be important for finding people to relate to.

Even that is suspect though, at least in my experience: my wife and I are very different in almost all respects: she’s much “smarter” than I am in almost every traditional sense but there are many areas where I’m faster and in almost every area I think way outside the box which she appreciates and can’t do as well. We enjoy these differences and use them to make our marriage stronger.

Many people tend to look for compagnions who are just like them and sometimes it works out, but if we’re secure in who we are it’s much more interesting to hang with people who are different. At least in my experience.

You know, with all the discussion around here about being tolerant of differences and accepting all kinds of minds into every part of society, it is interesting that *every* time Mensa is mentioned, there is an *immediate* and rather strong anti-Mensa message. Hmmm, it’s still OK to be prejudiced against people of high intelligence?

I’m not kidding here — there is a strong anti-intellectual streak in American society and a tendency to cut down anybody who appears to be smart. I have mentioned elsewhere that many bright kids experience negative teacher attitudes in school — well, here’s yet another example.

In fact my parents signed me up for Mensa when I was a teen, to help me expand my social horizons. No, NOT the one and only place to meet people, but one more *besides* school and the ski club and the curling club and church. I did meet a couple of guys there, although nothing came of it for various reasons including my going off to engineering school where you don’t need a special group to meet fellow nerds. :shock:
After they signed me up, the rest of the family looked at the people there and decided to take the test too, so we became the first all-Mensa family. Didn’t make us any weirder than we were before.
I met some nice friends of various ages there as well.

If you do crafts, you join the crafters’ guild to meet people who share your interests; gardeners join the garden club; model railroaders join the model railroad club; stamp collectors join the philatelic society; home brewers join the beer club; so why shouldn’t people who like verbal and logic games join Mensa? No difference.

I’ll be rejoining here again as soon as I stop working evenings, putting my money where my mouth is. I went to a few meetings last year; the group here is much much smaller than it was in my youth, lacking young people now, but is still a pleasant bunch of people to meet for dinner.

========

“If you do crafts, you join the crafters’ guild to meet people who share your interests; gardeners join the garden club; model railroaders join the model railroad club; stamp collectors join the philatelic society; home brewers join the beer club; so why shouldn’t people who like verbal and logic games join Mensa? No difference.”

========

Your analogy is not parallel ;)

To equate common interests in stamp collecting with having high intelligence in common seems rather shallow.

Not all people of high intelligence are interested in verbal and numerical logic games.

I’m pretty sure I’m smart but not in a way that Mensa would acknowledge and I doubt I’d have met my wife at a Mensa meeting. She probably is Mensa material but it’s the last place she’d go.

Using raw horsepower as a filter seems as limiting as using LD as a filter.

LD is not who you are.

Your IQ is not who you are.

These are aspects of people and I would add, not the most important aspects.

It’s what you do with your intelligence that counts, not what your IQ is or that you could be a member of Mensa.

Same with LD: it’s what you do with your unique learning style that counts and many people with learning differences have done some amazing things (some of them had and have average IQs) ;).

Intellectual does not equal smart. I sense no anti-intellectual feeling on this or any other discussion I’m part of about LD or anything else. The fact that people are taking part in discussions like this is an intellectual pursuit.

However, all of that said, if this guy meets someone nice at a Mensa meeting I will be more than happy to eat plenty of crow about Mensa as a means to that end.

;)

I do think, however, that focusing on horsepower rather than accomplishment is a mistake.

Let’s back up here. The issue is not Mensa. Or, even about dating per se.

Rath\er, it’s about someone “gettng out there” and connectiig with people. Now, why isn’t the guy in quesion hear spoeaking for himself. I’m sorry mom, but this is one of the areas that you need to stay out of.

Just my $.02

Richard is right of course, Mensa is not about *intelligence* but about IQ scores. There is a certain type of intelligence measured by IQ and that tends to be the verbal/ logical type. *If* such people who have these skills get together in Mensa it is a “good thing”. They do have sub-group and interest groups.

I think the thing is is to find some group that he may have some people he has things in common with. IF he is highly verbal Mensa might be just the thing. If not it might not.

I think we can say all those without “dissing” Mensa.

—des

To DMClark:

My son is frustrated and depressed about his inability to connect with the opposite sex. As a mother, and a concerned person, I am seeking ways to help him. I certainly don’t think that is inappropriate. If more parents sought solutions to their kids problems, maybe there would be less pain suffered by youth. It is difficult to ask for help when you feel so bad about yourself; and he does feel bad about himself. Sometimes, it takes a concerned mother (or friend, or brother, or wife, or husband, etc…) to do the asking.

Comments about American society putting a premium on being “usual” are true. We like for people to fit into a mold. It makes we the “regular” people feel better about ourselves. The truth is, my son is very special and extremely intelligent. He is different from the “usual” person, and that’s not bad. What is bad is that he is perceived as “quirky” or “odd”, and therefore not accepted by young women. Too, bad. This young man will be a success in his career, and has the potential to make someone an excellent provider, husband, and father. Some day, those silly girls who shunned him will look back and kick themselves in the pants for not nabbing him when they had the opportunity.

Yes, my son does qualify for Mensa; however, he has never expressed an interest in joining. My father was a Mensa member, and my son may one day desire to join. But this discussion isn’t about being “smart”…its about being accepted and helping a young man to learn to socialize and gain self confidence in his quest for happiness.

Thank you for your comments. Keep ‘um coming! :D

Ms Patty Poo,

Your boy child needs to deal with women from a position of strength. I would suggest that he take out an ad in the personal collumn and state his requiremnets for a lady worthy of him.

He will be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. He needs to create a little competition that will put him in the catbird seat. Ultiimately he would like to find a serious relationship but in the meantime he needs to develop some selfconfidence.

success spells success and success breeds confidence. He needs score a few times. I realize most women are silly and shallow but those are the ones he needs to learn how to conquer. Those type are out there to be played but they can smell fear a mile away. Your boy child needs to feel superior to most people because in a way he is.

I would suggest he hang with some players and learn a few techiques.

Patty —
And why shouldn’t you help your son? If you ask around your friends, I’ll bet a lot of them met their spouses (spice?) through family contacts. My brother met his wife when she first worked in the same office with our mother and then rented a room in mom’s house. The “girl next door” syndrome. And she has the patience to still be married to him (not an easy task) thirty years and two high-stress kids later, so we guess it worked. Other people meet partners through brothers and sisters, extended family, co-workers, and so on. A good method of finding someone who shares many things in common with you.
In many traditional cultures, parents think it is their duty to find a partner for their child. Marriages in those societies seem at least as happy and successful as those based on our romantic theories, so it’s no worse.

_______________________________________________________

Richard — your post is so full of assumptions and rationalizations that it is just amazing.

“Your analogy is not parallel

To equate common interests in stamp collecting with having high intelligence in common seems rather shallow. ”

Well, in the first place, I did NOT equate them — you did.
I talked about doing well on IQ tests and liking the kind of verbal and logic puzzles found in those tests. This is NOT, repeat NOT the same as intelligence. Whenever this subject is under discussion, I am very careful to avoid the word “intelligence” in connection with IQ’s, as you will see wif you actually read my posts. As a person who does quite well on tests and as a person with a MA in Education and several courses in testing, I have the background to stand up and say that IQ tests do NOT measure intelligence. IQ tests measure some, rather limited, *parts* or *facets* of intelligence. However as anyone who has ever been to a Mensa meeting will tell you, some people with high IQ’s are pretty stupid.
Now, I really don’t understand your attitude here. You are very negative about Mensa, yet you say comparing “intelligence” (your word, not mine) to stamp collecting “seems rather shallow”. So you have a great respect for “intelligence” (again your word, not mine) but at the same time you actively reject Mensa as an organization — why? It almost seems that you mistrust of too many “intelligent” people in some way.
I said just the opposite — IQ tests measure abilities with verbal games and logic, NOT anything deep and profound and frightening, and yes, these interests are on a level with stamp collecting — fun but NOT the center of one’s life. It is you that make that claim later in you post, not I.

“Not all people of high intelligence are interested in verbal and numerical logic games.”

True, and I never said the opposite. I said that people who score high on *this kind of test*, which measure these kinds of games, usually enjoy them, and thus enjoy casually meeting others with the same skills and interests. Like the famous book review, this is the kind of book you will like if you are the kind of person who likes this kind of thing. Again it is you, not I, making a big thing of IQ

“I’m pretty sure I’m smart but not in a way that Mensa would acknowledge”

Quite possibly. There are lots of kinds of smarts in the world. There’s the guy who can fix cars who is in great demand whether or not he can even read the test directions. There is my sister-in-law who can manage my brother and my mother and their descendants for thirty years, more power to her. *I* never said that IQ tests measure intelligence, I said quite the opposite. It is *you* reading into this things that are simply not there.

“and I doubt I’d have met my wife at a Mensa meeting. She probably is Mensa material but it’s the last place she’d go. ”

Now this is a really interesting statement.
We don’t have your wife’s private thoughts on this matter — you might be surprised, she could possibly have more interest that you think, and she might prefer marital harmony to arguing about IQ scores, in which case more power to her. Or she might agree totally with you. We don’t know, so enough speculation.

“She probably is Mensa material”

Again, “Mensa material” is a phrase *you* chose to use, not I. It’s a bit of a loaded phrase, isn’t it? I prefer to avoid it for just that reason. Wonder why you chose it?
Many people have opinions about others’ abilities, both positive and negative. Because such subjective opinions are notoriously inaccurate, that’s why tests were invented. Of course the tests only measure limited facets of a person; please see my comment above.

“but it’s the last place she’s go”

AHA! We don’t have your wife’s own opinion, but we certainly have yours here. You certainly hate this group for some reason, don’t you? WHY is it the last place someone should go? What is so dreadful and horrible about it?
Above you show an excessive respect for IQ tests — here you show a very negative reaction to the thought of people who do well on these tests getting together. What’s the big problem?

“Using raw horsepower as a filter seems as limiting as using LD as a filter.

LD is not who you are.”

These are your words, not mine.
**WHERE** are we right now? We are on a whole huge website dedicated to discussions of LD from various points of view. Does anybody here say that LD is who you are? Quite the opposite, I would say — that’s why I hang out here, because it’s somewhere we can all learn and do something positive in the community.
Now, it’s OK for you to come to **LD** Online and spend quite a bit of time here, that’s just dandy; but it’s not OK for someone to go to Mensa, it’s “the last place” to go. Pardon?? Your logical holes are showing.

“Your IQ is not who you are.”

I repeat, these are *your* words, not mine. **I** equated Mensa with stamp collecting and model railroading — an amusing pursuit, but not the center of one’s existence. It is **you**, three times and counting so far in this post of yours, that make such a humongous deal out of it. What exactly is *your* problem with IQ, that you have to harp on it so much?

“These are aspects of people and I would add, not the most important aspects.

It’s what you do with your intelligence that counts, not what your IQ is or that you could be a member of Mensa.”

Did I ever say anything like that? Go back and check. NO, I never did. *I* talked about playing verbal and logic games and going out to dinner with friends. **YOU**, four times and counting, have a heck of an issue with IQ, don’t you?

“Same with LD: it’s what you do with your unique learning style that counts and many people with learning differences have done some amazing things (some of them had and have average IQs) .

“Intellectual does not equal smart.”

Five times and counting. Man, what is your problem here? **I** didn’t say that — in fact I made quite a careful point of avoiding even hinting such a thing. **YOU** are really, really hung up on this IQ thing and any mention of it seems to bring out a real tirade here.

“I sense no anti-intellectual feeling on this or any other discussion I’m part of about LD or anything else. The fact that people are taking part in discussions like this is an intellectual pursuit.”

Well, I sure sense an anti-intellectual feeling from your post, sir. Five times and counting you have put me down as a person with high IQ who joined Mensa. You hjave put words into my mouth, words which I categorically deny, and very negative words.

No, you don’t see this in yourself. Nobody ever does.
Here’s a quick test, a very useful one:
Go back to your post a few times. Replace everything you say about Mensa and about IQ with (a) black, (b) female, (c) LD
With these replacements, would the statements get you hauled in front of your university’s/ business’s Equal Rights office? Would you know you shouldn’t make them?

I am very sorry you dislike people of high IQ and want us to go away and hide in our attics and not flaunt ourselves in public or join forces in some way you seem to find extremely distasteful.

What you are demonstrating,sir, is spelled
P-R-E-J-U-D-I-C-E

Wow, sounds like I hit a nerve.

My wife read the entire thread including my post mentioning her. No problem (she denies being as smart as I think she is but she’s being humble).

I have nothing against people with high IQs, that is your assumption.

I have something against groups that are exclusive and use filters that prevent others from joining.

I also have a problem with the assumption that having a high IQ means you will or even might find others with high IQs interesting.

If one goes to the Mensa web site and checks out their “workout”

http://www.mensa.org/workout2.html

one gets the feeling that, at least in this workout (I didn’t see another) verbal intelligence is what Mensa is about.

Since we’re having this “discussion” on LD Online, it would seem to me that the workout in question here is a filter. If you’re smart but find reading hard (do we agree that these things can coexist?):

1. unless you have someone or your computer read it to you, you can’t do it.

2. many people (Mel Levine, Howard Gardner, et al) have written about multiple propensities or “intelligences” so that one might assume that someone could be smart (high IQ?) and even literate and not be able to do the Mensa workout.

===========

All of that aside, my bias is this:

Acknowledging and focussing on IQ or even propensity is missing the point. It’s not how smart you are or what your IQ is or whether or not you qualify for Mensa, it’s what you do with your intelligence that counts.

My sore point is that I’ve run into too many people who show off their intelligence by making others feel bad and in the end, all they have to show for their intelligence is verbal acrobatics and social meanness. When I was younger I was intimidated by people like these but now I see through it and feel sorry for them.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I’ve done a hell of a lot with my life and I’m extremely proud of my accomplishments.

It’s what you do with what you’ve got that counts.

All this Mensa talk from all you Mensa wannabes is about as mature as six year olds comparing penis size.

Hey look at our president. He would need to triple his IQ inoreder to get into Mensa and I would guess any man who is comfortable with executing children and the mentally retarded could probably benifit from a big bottle on .
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––—

Patty Poo, have your boy child read the stuff I write, like this. Chicks dig a guy that is a good listener. They don’t like guys that are always flappin their gumbs. They instead prefer a guy who is interested in what matters to them and ask them though provoking questions. Also they dig guys with a good sense of humor.

I would bet your boy child is not real self assured. Chicks dig a confident guy.

Patty — sorry for the constant digressions, but this is something your bright-but-not-standard son will need to deal with.

Richard:
Hmm, the classic practice of the bad rhetorician, when logic fails fall back on personal attacks. It’s called the “ad hominem” fallacy.

Who hit *whose* nerve??

Every time Mensa is mentioned, you get up on your high horse and start spouting all sorts of half-truths and fallacies about a group you don’t know very much about and which you don’t want to have anything to do with. If you don’t care for it, why do you feel the need to post a long diatribe every time the topic is mentioned? If it doesn’t mean anything to you, just leave it alone!
The fact that you *cannot* seem to leave it alone tells me that it is *you* that have some kind of hangup about the issue.
I posted a couple of sentences, in the middle of a longer general post suggesting a number of ideas to help a young person get out more socially. *You* picked up on the Mensa idea, ignoring the rest, and posted a long rant on that one subject, going off on several tangents. I posted a short and calm reply suggesting you were taking the whole thing much too seriously; *you* posted another, longer rant. I decided to analyze that post for the number of fallacies, untruths, misconceptions, loaded words, and flat-out prejudices displayed, mostly to inform other readers since, as you are now demonstrating, logic rarely moves the truly prejudiced. *You* threw in yet a third rant, repeating the same negativity and adding a few more mean comments.

Look, you have never taken the Mensa test, you don’t know any Mensa members (ar ot least very few) in person, you have never been to a meeting, and all your information comes from a reading of one introductory web page. Either inform yourself better or give it up, please.

You comment about people who are show-offs about theior supposed intelligence and who put other people down. We’ve all met the type. I’ll tell horror stories of the world’s worst math professor to anyone who will stand still to listen. Of course, I meet people who put me down for all sorts of things, one today who became offended because I was “in his way” walking across the mall parking lot, as if there wasn’t plenty of space for a hundred people! Mean people abound everywhere, alas, and IQ does not have much to do with it. If you ever attended a Mensa meeting — I dare you —you would find that kindness and creativity and worldly success and all those other things vary among those of high IQ just as they do among any other group. That is one of the points of Mensa in fact — to study if there are common traits among those who score high; in general, there are not; except the tendency to do well on puzzles which is of course circular logic.

You are terribly offended because Mensa uses a test as a “filter” to allow membership. So, we need to get rid of the county elite soccer league, because it accepts only kids who pass a tryout — and worse yet only tries out kids by invitation, not open walk-in, and my daughter wasn’t invited? We need to get rid of the community theatre because it uses try-outs for parts and four out of five aspiring actors are refused, and worse yet we test people to be able to read aloud from Shakespeare so it discriminates against LD’s? We need to get rid of the science and tech program at the high school because there is a test to pass to enter it? We need to get rid of the marching band and orchestras in the high school, and the community brass band, because they use tests and tryouts as an entry filter? We need to get rid of the honours classes and AP classes because you have to pass a test to enter them? We need to ban the Masons and Shriners because they test people to be able to move up in the ranks and to become Shriners? We need to ban Scouts because they have tests for entry and tests for badges and tests for advancement and honours?

And if you say all these things are all “different” in some way, give a logical reason why. It sounds more like a case of sour grapes than logic.

Try answering a few of these points rather than ranting.

Yo Vic,

Wow, you really know how to keep a conversation going.

Have a nice day.

:)

Richard, you may be a bit anal but your posts are very well thought out and and I look forward to reading them.

Victoria, try being a little more tolerant and give decaf a try.

Richard let your ideas flow.

Mensa members may be many times smarter than me or so they may think but I know that in a fight I could scramble all those egg-head real easy.

People,… Don’t take sheet so freakin seriously.