Reading Reflex vs Orton-Gillingham

>>The last option is to pay for it myself, which is hard because i’m a stay at home mom.<<

If you have to go it alone,
check with your medical insurance.
When we had our son tested by a neuropsychologist I thought
no way would they pay for this.
But on a whim I called them and they would pay for his testing!
So it never hurts to look into it.

Anne

My son has been diagnosed with CAPD. I would be very surprised if the school was really equipped to do more than a screening of this. It takes specialized equipment and training. And no you can not determine CAPD by “observations”, although there are signs/behaviors consistent with it. It is actually very objective.

Our insurance didn’t cover the CAPD evaluations but many do.

Beth

That’s kind of the point of the test, isn’t it, to find out? If you could rule it out just by looking, why have a test??

If your son is very far behind academically and has shown difficulties in that area, you have a perfect right to insist on the test. Just be firm and repeat yourself until they are heartily sick of you and would rather take care of your son than deal with you (ie they stonewall, you stonewall back.)

Also, considering the inaccuracy and stonewalling the school has otherwise shown, why take their advice on a reading program? There is only one reason to wait, and that is to have him show his present performance on the test when you get it. If you do the program and he improves too much, you might lose your chance at services. So insist on the test; check your legal rights for time limits (I have heard 45 and 90 days but know no details) and as soon as he has shown present performance on the test, start teaching him with something that works.

From what I have heard, and this is second-hand, OG is a lot more detailed than RR. Since your son can already read a fair amount RR or another program aimed at older students (I have heard of Wilson) might be most appropriate.

Thanks for the reply Beth. I believe the testing is actually done thru Northwestern Univ., i know they are a major link in the process.

If my son has many characteristics of CAPD (i have read the book When the Brain Can’t Hear) can you think of why a school would NOT approve testing for this, especially if they have done so before? Do you think they might not want to set a precident for this? I guess i just want to know how they (the school) pick-and-choose who gets the testing and who doesn’t if they do not go by the characteristics/behaviors.

Sue

Victoria,

Thank you for your supportive words, I thought i was missing something!! His speech tchr. (of all people) tried to stonewall me by not answering my question to “why she didn’t want him tested”. She avoided the question and asked me a question, why i want him tested, do i want to give him (get this) “another label”?! UGGH!!

As far as being very behind academically, he decodes at a 4.5 level, and comprehends at a 5.5 level. Considering they didn’t place him in spl. edn. until 4th grade (when he was decoding at 2.7), i don’t feel he has come very far with all this “spl. help”.

My son does also have nystagmus as a second Vision Disability. Nystagmus is when the eyes constantly move. I feel the tchrs. want to blame is decoding weaknesses on this, but i’m starting to disagree. Especially since he is in 7th grade math with no modifications, and getting all B’s this year (so far).

Thank you again for you opinion, and recommendations!!

Sue

Hi Sue,
The schools don’t have to test for CAPD. You have to do it yourself. It is just like vision therapy, they don’t have to test for that either. If he has an auditory procressing disorder through testing in the past, then he may have CAPD or he may not. I am suspicious though, because he is doing so well in math. Also the ability to decode words and understanding numbers are in different parts of the brain. Regardless of whether he has CAPD or not, there isn’t any additional label that he could receive. There is not a category for CAPD in IDEA.
You asked the question about Orton Gillingham, so I ‘ll try to help you with that. I have worked a lot with kids who had ’ CAPD’. Their ability to hear sounds in words was severe. I gave one boy the Phono-Graphix test for phoneme awareness and asked him to decode ‘frog’. He said something like sl/ap/da. He received all Os on his test scores. I was even not sure that PG would help him, (short lapse of faith). In ten weeks with the parents help at night and just giving him an hour of tutoring a week, he passed the reading tests to be promoted to first grade! What I am trying to say is that go ahead and use Reading Reflex, it does work with those diagnosed with CAPD. I think that it is just a term that means severe form of auditory processing that will be helped with improving his phonemic awareness. OG is a good program but it takes a long time. I have had excellent results with PG. If you are having problems with using PG, go onto the bulletin board at Read America that are manned with many people that will help you. By the way, I have remediated, using PG, many kids that had Wilsons and OG for years. Wilsons is a clone of OG.

Hi Shay!
Thank you for the information, you have all been so helpful! I realize the school is not obligated to test, i as just wondering (outloud?) how a school can say yes to one kid and no to another (maybe mine) in my school dist. Especially since CAPD is so objective. I too cannot understand why he is struggling so with reading/decoding (tracking is also a weakness for him, i’m not sure if this is a result of decoding or a seperate issue), and doing so well keeping up in math. This is why i’m researching all these different avenues, i’m tired of walking along with the “team”, i think i need to push them a little bit. Especially since his spl. edn. tchr. never heard of Reading Reflex. Was i expecting to much to think she would know about it? Thanks again for your support. If it wasn’t for tchrs. on this board, i wouldn’t be able to help my son reach his potential. Not that i haven’t been, i just didn’t have anywhere to turn to for this information before!

Sue

x

Hi,
I have just reviewed what CAPD is and I am wondering why you think that your son is a candidate for this diagnosis? What kind of symptoms does he have? Again, I am really don’t think that he has CAPD, since he has no problems with understanding what the math teacher is teaching. Usually, if a child has CAPD, he has a problem understanding what is being said in all of his classes. It sounds to me that he has a phonemic awareness deficiency and using Reading Reflex (Phono-Graphix) would remediate this problem. The only problem that I have with using OG or one of it’s clones, Wilsons, is the speed in which it remediates. They take between 2-3 years to teach a child to read, you don’t have this kind of time to find out that it still didn’t work. I have remediated many kids who had 3+ years of either of these programs. My recommendation is for you to use Reading Reflex and see how it works for him. It certainly couldn’t hurt.
I was at the VA branch of the International Dyslexic Association and was talking to the president. She asked me what reading program I used and I said PG. She had never heard of it. This is not unusual for people in the field. This program is not publisized by it’s producers and the only way you can find out about it is on bulletin boards like this one or through trainers and therapists that use it, like me.

Well, I would put it in writing and cite the characteristics your son has which suggest, according to this book, that your son has CAPD. I would make note of the fact that the author is a leading authority on CAPD.

I personally have never heard of a school district doing complete testing but putting it in writing is the normal course of action for getting an evaluation.

Beth

First, I am not an O-G person nor trainer. I think the words on this thread have been rather negative toward a method with years of proven success. I also think this country is going to have to open up its pocketbooks to education if the demands for service remain so high with budgets so low. Otherwise, and it may already be too late, special ed is dead and will have to be rebuilt from ground up.

Most poor children staffed into LD get no viable services whatsoever. Until I hear some advocates for all children, I’m not inclined to listen to those wanting rather costly interventions. Believe me, I wish I lived in a society which valued its children and elders - and would fund what is needed. We don’t. I’ve also seen a society very demanding for its own needs, but very neglectful of the needs of the impoverished.

A wealthy child deserves no more from public education than a poor one. With the advocates the rich can afford, ser vices are often given at the expense of the poor - who could least afford any help whatsover. Perhaps the “stonewalling” I always read about is nothing but a district - overwhelmed financially - trying to figure out fair and equitable distribution of limited resources. (I am not a school administrator - I am a businessman/researcher/author.)

I hope to see more advocacy from this board. Ken

Dear Ken, I have read all of the posts on this thread and none including mine have been negative about OG or it’s clones. The point is that OG and Wilsons take time to remediate. When you have a student in 7-12 grade that can’t read on grade level, you don’t have the time. When I looked at the different methods that I could use, expediency was one of the main ingredients that I was looking for. I had a 19 yr old who had resigned from high school as a junior who didn’t have three years to learn how to read. I also had a class of teenagers that were in a school of last resort and were reading on the 2-4th grade level. At that time, I didn’t have any money from the school. I bought Reading Reflex for $30.00 and they all increased their reading levels at least by one year and most by three years in just three months. (I still have their pre and post test results) My daughter had 10 hours of remediation and passed her GED test, reading comprehension being her highest score. She is in college now and on Dean’s List. PG works and works fast in most cases. It just teaches the child to decode and nothing else. I know that OG has a very good track record in the past but if you find a program that works faster and cheaper, wouldn’t you use it? There is another reason why I use PG and not OG. When Dr. Orton designed the reading program, it was for children that had an IQ of at least 96+. Then the definition for dyslexia was for a child that had severe reading disorder with average intelligence with no other compromising communication disorder. I would say that the majority of my students have an IQ of 70-90. I teach a non-categorical self-contained English 11 class. I have three Mentally Challenged students who still have to take the state tests in order to graduate with a diploma, not with a certificate of attendance. They would have a real problem learning to read with OG. I like PG due to it’s speed of remediation and it’s lack of rules and exceptions.
I don’t know why you think that those of us on this board don’t advocate for the poor and that they don’t receive services. That is unfair to us who are trying to advocate for all children. I don’t know anyone on this board who discriminates because of a family’s economic situation. I stay after school and teach reading to any child who wants to learn. I also teach students in a tutoring situation and if the parents can’t pay, I don’t charge.

I work in Loudoun County in VA. Virginia used to have very rich counties, including Loudoun and Fairfax. If you have been following the news, our state budget is in a crisis situation. They can’t afford to increase school budgets and the schools continue to grow due to imigration. There are 65 languages spoken in my high school. This budget crisis was due to the past state administration spending future projected tax revenues and did not take in consideration that the bottom would fall out for the .coms companies, ( most located in Northern VA), and the recession in general. Throwing money at a district doesn’t mean that it correlates with success in remediting reading. Pnono-Graphixs, if the trainer also teaches in the county, costs $200 per teacher not per student for supplies and training This includes all of the supplies that a teacher needs to begin teaching the very next day. Training for teachers only takes 8 hours. I don’t know of a reading program that costs less. If my county decides to use PG for their students, it will be for both economic reasons as well as for it’s impressive track record.

I don’t know your credentials but those who are regular contributors on this board are excellent. I think that before you make furthur accusations about those of us on this board, you do your own research about IDEA and the services that it mandates by law to give to any child who is justified for services. There is nothing about discriminating against children that are poor. One thing that research tells us about those children coming from poor families is that they are behind before they even start school. I would recommend that you read the latest reading research that you can find on this website and others before you make the accusations that you have made on this thread.

Hi Ken,

I know your post was well intentioned, but maybe a little misdirected. I believe these tchrs. were responding to my request as a parent, to help my son at home. I guess i am giving up a little on the school to teach him, i need to really start doing something at home other than have him reading all the time….it’s not working. I’ve given the dist. 2 1/2 yrs. of his life during crucial learning windows to help him, and they haven’t. For example, he has gone from decoding at a 2.7 level (end of 4th grade before he was placed in spl. edn.) to a 4.5 level, currentlly in 7th grade. Having him in a “spl. class” I expected him to receive spl. attention in this area to bring him up to grade level, i don’t think he is. They (the tchrs., the school, whoever) are just teaching him at his level….that’s a big difference than correcting his deficit.

I want him to have for lack of a better word, a crash course in reading! i don’t care about science, social studies or writing, if he can’t read!! Once that is down pat, the other stuff will come along, even if it’s over summer school. But, thats only my opinion. So here i am, getting GREAT supplemental information from some truely good advocates!!!

The only way to change the school dist. thinking, teaching, etc. is to take it to a state level. Currently my state allows behavior kids to be in the same classroom as learning disabled kids. So when my son was in 5th grade, at LEAST 1 hour a day was spent correcting the behavior of 1 or 2 children (who wanted to throw chairs for example at the teacher), while the other students who wanted to learn, sat by quietly. Who’s the idiot who thought it was ok to put these 2 types of children together??? I don’t mean to slam behavioral (or the politically correct emotional) children, but don’t put kids who want to learn in the same class as kids who could care less!! I don’t have time right now to go down to Springfield, IL to change state laws, but after i am done helping my son, i’ll be able to pursue that avenue.

Sue

PS: The poor remain neglected, only if they allow it….i’m not allowing it anymore, that’s why i’m part of this board ;)

Hi Shay,

If i haven’t mentioned it, read the book “When the Brain Can’t Hear” by Teri Bellis, it’s a wonderful book. Even if my son is not CAPD, i’m glad i bought it ($25 at Borders). I read it in like 3 days, but then again i was motivated! Some of the characteristics Dennis has is: easily distracted by loud or sudden noises, difficulty following directions, has reading, spelling, writing and other speech-lang. difficulties, verbal math problems are difficult, frequently requests repetition of what is said, often misunderstands what is said. I am a realist and know that some of these characteristics are typical of a 13 yr old, but what if in his situation, they aren’t. I’ve had many people (including teachers) say oh he’s a boy they learn slower than girls. That may be true, but enough is enough for me. Personally, i want it (CAPD) ruled out if possible. Then i can go onto the next thing, whatever that may be!!

Sue

PS Although i haven’t started RR yet, i’m already implementing the “sound” theory when Dennis reads to me (he’s currently reading Robin Hood). If he gets stuck on a word i always ask him what sound the letter(s) make. Although i think it’s the same as asking him to “sound out the word”, which i used to do and he would stumble…i ask him “what sound does the letter make”, and he does it! I’m not going to try to figure that one out…i’m just going to roll with it!

and has not become widely known in the educational field. THere are a lot of books marketed to parents that they don’t know about — there are *lots* of books about teaching your child to read!

I can’t see anyharm coming from working with him with Reading REflex except the possibility of having him make progress that the school takes credit for. NO, as a rule they will *not* believe that a mere *parent* could have effected changes and progress…(grrr!) Short daily focused sessions are your best bet, and if you have questions, ask!

Think about it “sound out the word” — he looks at the word… how??? Oh, start with a letter…(it also directs him to start at the beginning) — and he’s older now and sometimes that makes a difference. (I made *exactly* the same mistake and will never forget the dumfounded looks I got. Unfortunately, when I asked “what is the sound for hte first letter” I got the same look!!! Shall we say these seventh graders reading bird for eagle were missing something in their foundations??)

You’ve got the main point right there — the rest is just detail and elaboration. (very useful detail and a lot of elaboration, of course)

“Sound out the word” is too vague and too general if you have never been shown HOW to sound out a word.

Things that need to be learned:
1. Start at the left and go to the right. Always move left to right, no exceptions. Look at each letter and the next two following it.
2. Look for pairs of letters (digraphs) that make a special sound such as sh, ch, th, ph = f, and ng at the end
3. Look for common vowel patterns: consonant-vowel-consonant (CVC) *usually* gives the “short” sound as in cat, bed, pin, dot, run; double vowel or vowel-consonant-e *usually* gives the “long” sound (says its name) as in rain, day, cake, bean, tree, here, bike, pie, ride, boat, toe, hope, blue, rude
Note that e at the end is usually silent. Note that y is consonant at start, vowel otherwise. y at end of little word is ie, end of big word is ee.
3A. If one vowel sound doesn’t make sense, try the other one.
4. Look for special vowels called diphthongs such as oy in boy, oi in oil; oo in boot, oo in foot; ow in cow, ou in house.
Learn that ough makes *one* of the sounds of o or u, and the gh is most often silent bit sometimes f. (through, although; cough, tough, and laugh)
5. Look for vowels followed by r, l, or w as in car, call, paw; same sound in her, bird, fur and (sometimes or) work; fork
6. Learn to divide syllables; first rough rule is spot the vowels and how many consonant *sounds* between them, and if there are two consonants divide between them, and if there’s one divide before it.

OK, now that’s a lot more than “sound out the word” and that’s why just telling the kid to do it won’t work; on the other hand it’s a lot LESS than five wasted years as a non-reader or frantic guesser. Huge advances can be made in ten to twenty hours intensive tutoring (although you need review and backup for some time to prevent backsliding) and you can teach most beginners to read in about a hundred hours. Severe LD’s may take more but generally not that much more - certainly not five years.

Sue,
Thanks for your thoughtful reading and response. LDA and IDA are good avenues to pursue fair and equitable treatment for all children with disabilities while you fight for the needs of your child. Though chastised on this thread, I’ll remain wary of those promoting lawsuits for the help of one child at the expense of many. I am neither a newcomer to this board nor a rookie in the world of educational (special educational) reform. Ken Campbell

Victoria, Thanks so much for the additional information!! I can certainly use all the little extra insights i can get. I wasn’t sure before if i was on the right track to helping Dennis read better. I wish i was more confidant in my teaching this to him, as i am about the program itself. Time will tell, and i will keep everyone informed. Thanks again for your support! Sue

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