Wilson questions

I haven’t seen that number — but I have seen a lot of Wilson and it’s better suited to average or better IQ kids, and older ones at that; it’s lots and lots of work with words. It is multisensory — but other programs (especially for younger kids) have more activities … well, I can’t think of any because my multisensory teaching experience is with average IQ+ older kids (and it’s a weakness of mine to tend to teach in words, words, words). The sentences and language of the program too, is, geared at older students — so the kiddo will be reading about jobs and shopping and things a younger kiddo will be less familiar with, and your background knowledge has an awful lot to do with how well you do with reading.
With my self-contained special ed kids, SRA corrective reading went very well. A couple of them, it didn’t connect for — I suspect the kids who really would have benefited from more of the kinesthetic and visual stuff of a multisensory structured program — but they all appreciated its structure. Unlike the MSSL programs (and like PG) there wasn’t discussion and discovery of language (being able to tell me what a closed syllable is, or the difference between vowels and consonants) — there was just lots of good structured experience. The stories were kinda corny (the mustard jar zapped by aliens was reaching ;)) but the kids liked ‘em.

You know, K, I think I am a bit “on your case” today and i will admit this at the outset.

You scathingly condemn us for being more concerned with tenure. Then you admit that one of the best programs in use for teaching LD readers, Wilson, did little for your brother.

Despite what people would like to think, not everyone has the cognitive skills (not intelligence, but rather a plethora of more specific skills that create LD or dyslexia when gone awry) to become a good, solid, grade level reader.

I work pretty hard, am fairly knowledgeable and serve in public school resource. I get progress, to be sure. My students usually leave my 6th grade reading 4th-6th grade level, albeit often much, much more slowly than the typical grade level reader.

Despite all of this, I do not feel particularly successful, I would never ever state my students are on grade level. They can pick up materials and read, in short spurts (most work several times harder mentally to read than their nondisabled peers, so reading remains very tiring mental labor). Most of my students are not going to just blend in with grade level peers and read secondary science and social studies textbooks, most struggle with written language. They are still a far cry from the nondisabled population.

Why? For starters, I find I must specifically and explicitely teach every single step and aspect of reading/language arts to them. I must teach my students to do things nondisabled peers just do naturally w/o any special instruction. This all takes time, much time.

It is a myth to believe that we can make all LD readers read on grade level, catch up to their peers and competitive with peers in reading/writing situations. They will always remain toward the bottom of the curve with respect to these behaviors. THAT IS, IF THEY WERE TRULY LD IN THE FIRST PLACE AND NOT MERELY LATE BLOOMERS WHO WERE MISLABLED OR VERY MILD DYSLEXICS WHO MERELY SUFFERED DYSTEACHIA. The students who are the “real McCoy” usually have multiple processing deficits with no real strengths to rely upon when it comes time to read and spell, even with average intelligence.

Oh my, oh my, oh my Anitya, I condemned the teachers in my district. I believed I made that clear. I also didn’t condemn the woman who used the Wilson program, she is the one I talked about, that was the only one who cared for my brother. I do not doubt the caring of teachers, as I mentioned, I had many wonderful teachers, my brother, unfortunately, has not been so lucky. The teachers in my district said that tenure was one of their major concerns, as was more pay, and better pay raises. My district cancelled all music classes, some sports, layed of non-essential employees, raised sports fees and transportation fees. Our problems are not limited to the school dept., there are problems with the town government as well.

However, I do not doubt that one of the best programs in use for teaching LD readers is Wilson, but it has done little for my brother brother and I want to know why. As an advocate for my brother, I need to have a very clear understanding of the programs and therapies that are used with my brother. I need to understand what help he needs and if that is what he is getting. The school was left for almost 10 years with my brother, they did not discuss at all what programs they were using, they just did as they saw fit. When we finally determined what was happening, we ended up looking up from the foot of an enromous mountain, one we know understood that we were going to have to climb.

Before he returns to school and receives more Wilson, I would like to know if he would benefit from a different type of reading instructional approach. I am not here to condemn or discuss the merits of the Wilson program. I am here to help my brother and sister and son. That is why I posted after I read about the IQ and Wilson.

If other programs exist that would make him more successful I want to learn about them so I can discuss them with the school.

I also understand that not all children possess the skills necessary to read on grade level but I do beleive that my brother hold’s the skills necessary to become at least a closer to grade level reader. Also, I never set limits on what my children can do, I tell them they can do anything they set their mind too! I think it would be very harmful to them to tell them, you will never be a good reader, or read near grade level. If I keep motivating them and telling them how great they are doing, they will succeed! I would never say otherwise to a child!

According to his testing, my brother is 6 grade levels behind. That is what made me doubt how effective the Wilson program is. Although the teacher was wonderful and really helped my brother in other ways, if his brain is not wired to understand Wilson, I want to find another way. After 3 years he is only at a 3rd grade level, I am not sure that is progress?!?

K.

Hi K,

I am the one who posted the IQ etc. about Wilsons. This information about Wilson came from Wilson. I also was in search for a reading program that would work fast with low IQ and language involved kids. I emailed Wilson’s directly and asked them a few questions. I asked them how long it would take, and they said about 2-3 years. I asked them about using it in a class with different reading levels, and they said that it would be difficult to do. I asked them if all students had to start at the beginning and they said yes. I also asked them about the IQ and they said average and above understood it better (92+). I also asked if they had any independent research done on the program, they said no. I decided that it didn’t suit my needs and so I used PG, and it did work for them.. The private school decided to use Wilsons and now they use nothing. Wilsons didn’t work with the kids. OG and it’s clones really were, at the beginning, made for the kids that were specifically dyslexic when the definition meant a child with severe reading disabilities, with normal to above normal intelligence and no other communication disorders, ex. speech and language. I don’t really think that that has changed. I had a real problem understanding the concept of open and closed syllables in relation to teaching reading when I was looking at the program. Some kids that have been on the program for many years, when they have come to my high school, still don’t understand why they had to know about them and they don’t understand how to read MS words.

I am in no way bashing the program, just giving you what Wilsons said to my questions and my experiences. This was four years ago, and Wilsons may have changed since then.

One important question is to ask about the frequency and intensity of the tutoring. If it’s been weekly then he’s had six days to forget between every session. Lots of hte research in this reading stuff says that it’s more important to be consistent and intensive than to have “the” program for a student.

My brother had the program on average 4-5 days a week. He also went to this reading specialist room once a day to receive classwork help.

However, he did use the program with other children and his IQ does not match the criteria that Wilson explained. He has been using the program for three years and I suppose by Wilson standards he has made some progress becuase he started book six but he can’t seem to translate anything he has learned into “regular” reading.

Also, he has been receiving speech and lang therapy since age 3, however, it has come to our attention ( with help through research on these boards) that he has only been receiving therapy at school once a week for about 3 years, before that he had one year he didn’t receive any and then before that it was 1 hour a week. It is no wonder he hasn’t made progress.

We are waiting to hear on health insurance for him and then we will put him in speech/lang therapy privately, hopefully that will help!!

Also, I am trying to figure out how to get my brother to use the PG book with me?? My library has the language wise book , the one put out by the PG authors, I am wondering if that might be better for him?

Any suggestions would be great!!

Thanks
K.

Language Wise will not teach him how to read. It is for improving language skills.

I don’t know if this is the right approach with him or not, but I guess I would sit down with him and have a talk about his reading, where he’s at with it, and how he feels about it. I would explain that he learns in unique ways and the key is to find an approach that works. Tell him you have discovered PG that has helped a lot of kids to learn to read, but I would also tell him that if this doesn’t work, you will keep looking for something that will help him. I know you care a lot about him, so I hope he would be receptive. He’s at an age too where he might not want anyone else to know that he’s working on this, even other family.

Good Luck.

Part of the problem is that my family runs a catering business during the summer. They work long hours and he is very good at it. That is fantastic that he feels so successful but also hard becuase he want to forget about school work.

I think he would do the Pg or language wise with me if I talked to him about it, the biggest obstacle is getting certain family members to think it is as important asking working. He let me give him the assessment tests in the PG book, so I konw he is somewhat receptive.

K.

Hi K,

I do exactly what Pal says. I have a heart to heart talk with my students. I tell them that I am going to teach them advanced reading skills. Since most need the advanced code work, this works fine. I tell them that since I have taught this program, I am a better reader. Tell them that all people can improve their reading skills. It seems to work well.

It is hard, I have tried several different approaches. I have tried the “Can you please help you nephew approach” Didn’t work. Then I tried the “Look how much fun this is approach”

He can be stubborn sometimes. I am going to try and tell him that if he does this with me he will eventually not need as much tutoring at a school. He is attending a new school and I am sure he wants to just be a regular kid.

Another big obstacle is getting the rest of my family to see how important it is. They work all summer with their catering business and they get so wrapped up in it I think they forget about school!!

Thanks for the suggestions, I will try and explain it that way also!!

K.

K.:

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When I went for the Wilson 2-day Overview, we were told that the student had to have a FSIQ of 80, not 92. Also, although Wilson at one time only addressed middle school students and above with average IQ (more like Shay’s listed numbers), they now have published newer materials with elementary school children with more appropriate vocabulary for these children and those with less sophisticated language skills. Each reader also has two sets of sentences and passages for each substep. The A levels are for students on the elementary level and those with language deficits. The B levels are for middle school to adult students with more advanced language skills.

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It could be, especially if the person admisitering the program assumed that because the student was in middle or high school, she should use those wordlists, sentences and passages that were meant for that age group. It also can be that Wilson is not a good match for him. There just might be too much talking and linguistics involved to maintain his interest. SRA Corrective Reading, Lindamood-Bell’s LiPS program combined with SEEING STARS, or PG (which I don’t know a whole lot about) might be a better match for him. I don’t know if you stated whether your brother was dyslexic or not, but if he’s not, I would truly go for the SRA Corrective Reading. This method has been very successful for our slow learners. Our whole school is a Direct Instruction school, and has been very successful for many students.

Marilyn

He is dyslexic, could that be another problem?? Are there programs that address the dyslexia. Also, he has a lot of trouble with the p, b, f, th, sounds, there are others but I can’t remember them.

When researching the speech and lang services that were offered to my son, I got a lot of feedback saying that once time a week for 30 minutes was going to be highly inaffective. Then while reading over my brothers .last three IEP, I realized that is all has gotten for sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Fifth grade he recevied no services, and prior to that, kindergarten through fourth he received 1 hour a week. I noticed problems when he speaks and hear, that he confuses a lot of the sounds. Could this have contributed to his lack of progress.

I am thinking that on top of another reading program he should be getting more than 30 minutes of speech and lang?

Thanks
K.

K.:

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No, I don’t think that his dyslexia is a problem, because Wilson and other O-G based programs were created with dyslexics in mind. There are other programs. Lindamood-Bell’s LiPS programin combination with SEEING STARS could be a good choice. This program works more with phonemic sequencing. The student learns the formation of the sounds with first mouth pictures, and then for older children the sound/symbol relationship is added. Then students learn sound sequencing by first using mouth pictures and then colored blocks to manipulate the sounds—adding, deleting, substituting, and switching—rat to trat (addition) to tram (substitution) to tarm (switch). When students have become proficient in this skill, letter tiles are also used in the same manner. Then felts are used to learn syllable division strategies. This is probably where I would begin using SEEING STARS, another Lindamood program, which works combines symbol imagery (letters, and then syllable types) with auditory sequencing. This is more of a decoding program which applies all the previous LiPS concepts, but adds the reading and spelling component. It also teaches sight words. However, this program can also be used independently of LiPS, and would be just as effective as a supplementary program to any reading program.

I believe both Wilson and Lindamood-Bell are both excellent programs. One is probably just as good as the other, but one program may be better than the other for a particular student as in your brother’s case.

Marilyn

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. No matter how good a program, half an hour or a single hour once a week is not really enough to teach anything. Thin k of your own experiences learning anything from Spanish to piano to sailing to art — if you had a one hour a week introduction, that was just enough to get you vaguely interested and also frustrated because by the time you were reminded of what you did previously, there was no time left to move forward. Your brother and your son both really need a minimum of three hours a week, spaced out M-W-F or Tu-Th-Sat. If you or the school board can’t afford a qualified person for that much time, then you need a tutor to teach one hour and give homework for two more hours, which you will supervise; and it has to be supervised religiously.

Another thought on your brother: I am presently tutoring an adult student, age 62. He got about where your brother is, Grade 3 reading, zero phonics and zero ability to write because he didn’t know which letter to use because of zero phonics, before the special ed gave up on him. He still works as a labourer with no hope of advancement. He is now starting to learn reading all over again with me, but it’s a long hard road when you’re 62 and ill and work long hours. I’d have him write to your brother except he can’t write. I can ask him to dictate a letter to email if you think your brother would listen to advice from someone who has been there and done that. Email me if interested.

I think that woud help him a lot. I think it would also benefit my son who is just learning how to read.

If your student is willing to that, we would be very appreciative.

I forwarded you an email with my address.

Thank you
K.

I hear your frustration. One of the reasons I left teaching in public school and went to private school was just that attitude from administrators that I could make my students’ problems just go away, without disrupting anybody’s routine.

I’m a special education teacher who has written a spelling series for LD students that really works. Not only that, but students can work independently or in pairs on most of the pages which frees you up to circulate or work one on one as necessary. Looking Glass Spelling is a unique, multisensory method of spelling instruction for students grades 2-8 who are reading 2 or more years below grade level. A single, reasonably priced binder of materials provides sufficient work for an entire school year with the kind of reinforcement and practice that LD students need. Looking Glass Spelling teaches strategies (not lists of words) that also improve reading and vocabulary because it is based on Glass Analysis, a recognized instructional technique for teaching decoding, and it uses age-appropriate vocabulary. The materials dovetail well with Wilson, Orton, and Lindamood Bell materials. To learn more about Looking Glass Spelling, see a sample chapter, or to order, just go to our website at www.gwhizresources.com.