Knowing Too Much

Hi Janis,

Welcome to the trenches!

In our state (WA) we can dip in and out of the school system.
Kids can be homeschooled for some subjects and attend school for others.

Don’t know if that is an option for you.

While, for the most part, we have had a good experience with
the nicest and kindest LD teachers, I have never believed that
they could serve every child the way they needed. There just
isn’t enough teachers and money to go around.

But you are a step ahead - you have training and background
and you can understand educational-ese!

Whatever you decide to do your daughter is lucky to have
you in her corner.

Anne

Janis, I can certianly relate having two boys with special needs. They must struggle for each step they take. It seems in 1st grade the difficulties arent that great but as they move up the gap seems to grow. The nice thing is though that sometimes you come across a teacher, a program, something that seems to help. My youngest son who is austic was considered severe at age three but now at age 9 1/2 he is considered mild. He has recieved early interventive service since 22 months of age. I believe that kiddos who recieve this type of intervention as early as possible can come such a long way. You know so much and seem so loving and caring that I am sure your daughter will continue to thrive. I am not saying it is not gonna be easy because it isn’t I just want you to know that the hard work DOES pay off. My oldest son who is 13 and in 8th grade has struggled mightly—but has NOT given up. As he has matured and become more aware of what is going on he seems more determined and more willing to work. WE at home just provide a loving and supporting enviroment for him and advocate the best we can. We try to be there for each other and for others in the same boat because it helps when others can relate. Keep your chin up and keep in mind the stories of success.

Thank you, Anne. Yes, I do have some friends that teach LD resource and they are wonderful, caring human beings who genuinely love their students. But honestly, you are right that they are often not given the materials, training, or low enough caseloads to really accomplish anything.

I have never heard of anyone locally that has part-time homeschooled, but I could always be the first! I’m probably the first person who has gotten reading goals in on a S/L IEP! Lol! The only thing is, though, we have awful state tests that require repeating grades when a certain score is not made. That could force us to homeschool full-time eventually. I will not let them kill my little girl’s self-esteem. She is delightful and creative and happy, and I plan to keep her that way.

Thanks again for the encouragment. I needed it.

Janis

Thank you as well, Lisa! I know I need to concentrate on today and not worry about the future. I’m sure I will be a much better teacher for having this experience personally. I’ve been forced to read up on the best teaching methods for LD’s, and I will also be able to better relate to the parents of my students (who are mainly hearing impaired). And you are right, it does help to intervene early.

I appreciate your taking the time to encourage me!

Janis

In Washington state we have the evil WASL.
It is scheduled to become the end all exam for passing
in 4th, 7th, 10th and graduation for the class
of 2008 - my LD son’s graduating class.

I keep my ear close to the grapevine always hoping
to hear that it is going to be delayed once again.
I’ll take a lawsuit, scandal, the governor’s children
flunking - anything!

They are working on some areas for LD children but
some they are going to be tossed into the test sink or
swim.

They’ve been testing the test for, must be going on,
six years now.
The current scandal is teachers who watch the kids
blow off the ‘test’ tests but are having to remediate
based on flawed test scores.

My very own straight A, AP everything, sophomore son
admitted to blowing off the test when doing another
‘test’ test last year.

It’s all very scary.
And I agree with you, so much so for a LD child.

Anne

Early intervention does help!! When you say an auditory processing disorder what do you mean by that? What testing has she had? Some speech therapists link together language processing and auditory processing and they are 2 different things. If its auditory processing she should be seen by an audiologist to check for CAPD. There are accomodations and therapy techniques around this. You might use something like Lindamood but you would do more auditory things as well as sequencing/grpaheme/phoneme correspondance things like Lindamood. To be honest you don’t need to buy that whole program, Linguisystems has great stuff for phonemeic awareness that functions on the same principle and costs less and is easier. Has she had phonological awareness testing, auditory disrcimination testing or just basic language testing? If kids can’t hear the sounds they have trouble spelling them. You address skills such as lipreading, repeating instructions, learning to use context cues, knowing when to ask for repetition, might consider an FM system (school districts are sticky on providing those without an actual hearing impairment) and the like. You practice listening in the presence of background noise and fading it. And you do it now so that as work gets harder strategies are in place for learning.

Our tests (NC) have already started counting at third and fifth grades. Next will be eighth, and the high school exit exam given in the spring of 11th grade will count next year. My older daughter is a junior this year, so she just barely misses it, although, she is at the top of her class like your older son. So basically, I have until the end of third grade with the little one, and then her future will be somewhat determined. I’m not retaining a child in third grade. I was already advised not to retain her in first. They (reading/language eval at a university) said I should seek outside tutoring rather than repeat something that was ineffective in the first place.

Janis

Cheryl,

She had a full APD eval at the APD clinic in the audiology dept. at the University of FL in November. We also had her tested at the language/reading clinic there. Then we had all the testing analyzed by an APD specialist (audiologist/SLP) in Washington to get help with IEP objectives and therapy recommendations. He said her deficit was primarily auditory integration. (She was tested by the school SLP first. Her only artic errors are /r/ and /th/. I knew she was APD earlier, but it was better to wait until age 6 to do the testing). Actually, her phonemic awareness was at a std. score of 85, which was not her lowest area. They told me she would not need the LiPs program…just something like Seeing Stars which would also cover some decoding. She scored very low on things that had to do with memory (sentence imitation, etc.) and relational vocabulary. Some very normal subtests and some very low. Nonverbal IQ in high average range. Because she has been in a good phonics program, she has picked up a good bit of basic letter sounds. She can decode 3 sound words okay but has difficulty when they are longer. Her comprehension is poor. Spelling is poor. I imagine we will see more of a deficit when she is tested again. But she was first tested in October and she scored 1.0 on the reading which was technically only 2 months behind. She probably didn’t have to do much to score 1.0.

Interestingly, she did not score poorly on the speech-in-noise testing, so a FM system was not recommended. Her class only has 22 kids and she sits on the front row, so I think she is okay. She just needs things to be repeated so that she can remember and process it all!

I use LinguiSystems materials frequently at school. What phonemic awareness materials do you like? Have you seen their CAPD kit? I ordered one by Dr. Jeanane Ferre called “Processing Power” from Psychological Associates. It hasn’t arrived yet. I have also just received Reading Reflex/PhonoGraphix to work on the phonemic awareness and decoding. Oh, we use Earobics at home, too. It addresses several areas of auditory skills. I am trying to get the school to buy the Lindamood Bell materials. I think she could use both Seeing Stars and Visualizing and Verbalizing.

Her school is pretty demanding academically, which is nice for many kids, but maybe not the best situation for her. It’s hard for us to keep up with their pace. I guess that is what has me a little discouraged.

Thanks again!
Janis

You might find Fast Forword helpful for “her needing things to be repeated so that she can remember and process it all!” About a month after my daughter (age 12) finished FastForword, she commented that she was able to follow the class instructions so much better. She said that she use to think she was one of the dumbest in the class and now she feels like one of the smartest. It is also carrying over to her second language courses which she has had so much difficulty with in the past.
As a teacher, you could be her provider. For about $50 you can be certified, then you pay around $800 for the program.

I am considering it. I actually have the training kit here right now! I guess I’m a little bit leary because of the cost with no real guarantee that it will help. If it was $100, I wouldn’t care! I just think if they reduced the cost, they could really increase the number of users and actually maintain or increase their profits. Schools will never use it widely at this price. Actually, the specialist in Washington has done a study using FFWD and he says my child has the type of APD it might help. That’s why I ordered CrossTrain. Maybe after I look at that, I’ll be more clear on whether I want to try it or not. I’m really happy to hear about good results, though! Thanks for writing!

Janis

Okay,just a couple of thoughts here.

About auditory processing disorder.

My youngest was diagnosed by an audiologist with CAPD. He had a stronger side. I don’t know about your daughter,but even sitting in the front row with his left side facing the doorway,caused many problems for him. Is it possible that it is not just the front row but a signiciance to which side?

Another thing was,although Math was a strong subject for him,he, due to the word retrevial problem he was a slow responder,he knew the answer but couldn’t spit it out as quickly as the other students. The teacher would give him a question to answer the day before the class. This way he could do the math problem ,already be familiar with the material they were going to be covering,and participate in class because he had the time to process it the day before. This worked so well that:

His language Arts teacher,had a lesson called “Daily Oral Language”. He would write a sentence down on the board,the students would write it down on their paper and then either correct all the words that needed capitals,explain what was wrong with the sentences,whatever the thing was for that day,etc. My son never really got anything out of this,because A. he is also dysgraphic,which meant most of his time was spent trying to just write the sentence down,let alone be able to then participate in the lesson. Again,we would do this daily oral language lesson the night before,the teacher would give me his lesson plan a week in advance,my son would do the lesson the night before and then he would be able to participate,because he was given the time to process it before it was presented to the class. My son had strong visual strategies due to being so weak auditorily,therefore anything given as a visual cue helped him to fully understand what was being taught in class.

Pattim once gave me the advice to have him read books on tape,although he was a good reader,it did make a huge difference in auditory memory.

By the way he did Fastforword this summer. He did well with the program.
I know this might sound strange,and I do not have any data,or statistics to back myself up here,but he is NOW showing great improvement in auditory processing. In other words either the FFW program keeps helping months later,or he is getting something else I don’t know about?

The improvement I am refering to is: initiating conversation,flow of ideas are coming much quicker,word retrevial, and processing quciker what another is saying to him.

Janis,

If your daughter loves school, I wouldn’t worry too much for now. My son hated first grade (and second). Third is better because he is catching up. Remember you have all summer to try to catch her up. Also, if homeschooling is an option, that takes some of the pressure off you to make it work at school.

In elementary school, I really don’t think it is important that they learn things like science, health, social studies. The most important thing is that they learn to read, do math, and write. There has been a major shift in circul. since I was a kid. I often think time that would be better spent on the basics is spent on other things.

So I really don’t think I would worry about your lack of science expertise right now, if you think homeschooling would best meet her and your family’s needs. Also there a lot of people who homeschool for a year or two to catch kids up and then send them back to school. If your daughter didn’t have science (or just had books read to her, it wouldn’t be a big deal.

But I know how discouraging it can be. I have been teaching my son division this week. He really didn’t get it from school. For him, I don’t think it really is a memory issue now (his memory is close to normal after intervention) but rather more of seeing the relationship between multiplication and division. I can see the long road we are on.

We pulled our son out for the second half of second grade and partially homeschooled him. In our case, the school was not effectively meeting his needs. I work so it wasn’t practical to do it full time or I would have. I think it really helped because it took us out of the homework rat race and gave him appropriate intervention. It took a lot of pressure off our family. We had been spending two hours a night on homework.

I know Mary MN whose daughter is also in a Charter school partially homeschools her daughter with their blessing (I didn’t have anyone’s blessing—they just couldn’t stop me according to their lawyers). It seems to work out well for them. It allows for more one on one attention without having to do the school HW too.

I also would seriously consider FFW for the memory issues. I know there are no guarantees and results do seem to vary by person. And it is a lot of time and money. I looked again at my CAPD evals and the difference after FFW was striking. My son’s scores indicated both decoding and tolerance fading memory deficits in his initial evaluation. After FFW, neither area was significant. Unfort. we still have the integration problems but the memory improvements have def. helped.

Beth

Thanks, socks. My child also is helped a lot by visual cues. That’s easy in the lower grades but trouble for later grades when text increases and pictures decrease.

Regarding one side being worse than the other; I seem to recall that most people will have a stronger side, so my child’s deficit was a little worse in one ear than the other (not significant). But she is hearing through both ears at the same time in the classroom (she’s not up against a wall or anything). I know her problem is more slow processing and/or memory (integrating all that she hears). I did send her teacher a note today and suggest that she might have to have the math assessment individually so the questions could be repeated as many times as necessary. By the way, my child is mixed dominance for handedness, which I think is indicative of her processing difficulties.

I think that is great for your son to be able to have some of his assignments in advance. My child is not dysgraphic, so we don’t have the problems with copying, etc. She has strong visual-motor skills. Honestly, my child’s regular homework (phonics, reading, math) takes us an average of an hour per night, so we couldn’t do any advance classwork. My problem is that I need to be doing remedial work with her, but we can’t when she puts her last bit of energy into homework. I have already expressed that she has too much homework, but it has only decreased occasionally since I said that. I have pretty much quit working on the spelling words because I’m just not sure that is the best use of our time at this point.

I’m glad you also like Fast ForWord. Besides the concern I have already expressed, I should add that at age 6, I’m a little concerned about getting her to sit at a computer for 100 minutes a day. But I still have a little more time to decide before summer.

Thanks, socks. My child also is helped a lot by visual cues. That’s easy in the lower grades but trouble for later grades when text increases and pictures decrease.

Regarding one side being worse than the other; I seem to recall that most people will have a stronger side, so my child’s deficit was a little worse in one ear than the other (not significant). But she is hearing through both ears at the same time in the classroom (she’s not up against a wall or anything). I know her problem is more slow processing and/or memory (integrating all that she hears). I did send her teacher a note today and suggest that she might have to have the math assessment individually so the questions could be repeated as many times as necessary. By the way, my child is mixed dominance for handedness, which I think is indicative of her processing difficulties.

I think that is great for your son to be able to have some of his assignments in advance. My child is not dysgraphic, so we don’t have the problems with copying, etc. She has strong visual-motor skills. Honestly, my child’s regular homework (phonics, reading, math) takes us an average of an hour per night, so we couldn’t do any advance classwork. My problem is that I need to be doing remedial work with her, but we can’t when she puts her last bit of energy into homework. I have already expressed that she has too much homework, but it has only decreased occasionally since I said that. I have pretty much quit working on the spelling words because I’m just not sure that is the best use of our time at this point.

I’m glad you also like Fast ForWord. Besides the concern I have already expressed, I should add that at age 6, I’m a little concerned about getting her to sit at a computer for 100 minutes a day. But I still have a little more time to decide before summer.

Did you mean that he read books onto tape or he listened to recorded books on tape?

Janis

He had the book, read it while he listened to the tape. Harry potter was one.

Yes,due to the dysgraphia he needed the time to write,but he also needed the time to have an answer ready therefore able to respond with the rest of the class.

I made sure the homework was addressed in his IEP,we agreed to a set time,period. 30 min. The next days classwork was only one or two sentences and only one math problem.

Spelling! God yes, Spelling the nightmare from hell!

with spelling we did something called color shock. He would take the spelling list,copy the word with three different colors. This was used as his spelling homework.
This year color shock is green for the first letter,meaning go,and red for the last letter,meaning stop. Alternating colors in between. It also seems to help him to write the definition of the word. Never more than ten words either

Beth,

Okay, I had forgotten that FFWD helped your son’s memory. I recalled that it did not help integration. However, in Anna’s case, I think the memory and temporal processing issues contribute to the integration problems, so I’m willing to try to help any of those areas!

You know, you have made a good point. I read not too long ago that in earlier times in our country, science and social studies were not taught much before maybe fourth grade when children DID have the basics of “reading, writing, and arithmetic” down. I really, really agree with this. Because my child’s school is trying to do the Core Knowledge curriculum, they are having a lot of science and social studies. That is why they are not having time to do some of this math and phonics homework in class in the afternoon (which was my suggestion). (It really is an excellent overall curriculum for regular kids, though.)

The only thing is, with this dumb state testing, I just don’t have the confidence that we can keep her at a level that she can pass those things. They are really hard. Math computation is a very small part of the math tests. It is almost all word problems. of course, we could have a read aloud modification for that, which would help. I was really thinking of how I would handle high school level courses like science (and everything else) if we had to pull her out altogether!

Oh, well. I guess we’ll do what we have to do! I guess I just felt discouraged when I saw that math assessment last night. I thought that one subject was not a problem, and it was just a let down to see a 47 or whatever.

Thanks!
Janis

Yes, I bought her a little white board and bright colored dry erase markers so she could do her spelling words in color. It did help, but that’s another 15 or 20 minutes! Actually she’s getting about 8 out of 12 words just by class practice and a little at home, so I’m not going to go crazy over it. Right now I think the phonics, reading, and math are more important.

Janis

It wasn’t that long ago that science and history weren’t taught in the early grades. I’m 47 and I didn’t get them til 4th grade.

I homeschooled both my children until 3rd grade. I am of the opinion that any mother can homeschool - it doesn’t require grade training, and you are a teacher! However, not all children are cut out to be homeschooled. For children with LD’s, it can be the best option. You can concentrate on the weaknesses, get lots of time and repition and not wear her or you out with the increasing homework battle. I would strongly suggest that you homeschool and possibly have her tutored in a reading program. Good luck finding anyone who does LMB, and it you do it’s so expensive! Thousands! Maybe Orton-Gillingham or FastForward - expensive and requires alot of intensive time.

She’ll never get science or history if her reading is poor. She’s not going to miss anything academically in 2-4th grade. Don’t miss this chance. My son is in 7th grade and I would give anything to go back. While I homeschooled, I didn’t recognize how severe his LD’s were. I just thought he was a late bloomer. I missed the chance for early intervention and he’s really struggling to catch up now - if he ever will.

Good luck. Go with your own instincts, you know your daughter.

Laura

Laura,

I’m really interested in homeschooling. Some of my friends do it. Right now I am teaching 4 days a week. I enjoy what I do, but I need to do it because our oldest child goes to a private college. That’s my main conflict about quitting altogether and homeschooling. We don’t want to saddle our kids with huge college debt. In two or three years I could reduce my work time further. So it’s really very complicated. (Our two older children were born into our family and the youngest was adopted from China when the older two were 10 and 13. That’s why we have the age difference).

I am getting prepared to do the reading tutoring myself. I am going for Phono-Graphix training in April. We live in a small town, and I doubt there are any qualified tutors here. (Since I’m in special ed., I know most of what is available here). I also will get the LB Seeing Stars manual and Visualizing and Verbalizing Kit. It would be great if I could homeschool and do nothing but the reading and math for a couple of years. I live by faith, and I just have to trust that doors will open if I am to homeschool. Sometimes there is a way when we can’t yet see it, if you know what I mean.

Janis

Janis,

My son did ffw after first grade. I won’t say it was easy but I don’t regret doing it then. We had to divide the sessions up—he never did more than two in a row. He used to go ride his bike in between.

One mom who I corresponded with whose child had life changing effects from FFW had her child do it between K and first grade. (Her child was actually much worse off to start with than my son). Now he actually did it practically in one setting (ran around the house between the 3 and 4th games) so a lot depends on the kid.

I am sure it is easier to have an older child do it but if anything I wish my child had done it a year earlier. First grade pretty much just went by him.

Beth

Hmmm, I see an option for you, if you decide to leave work
and still have kids in college (!!)

And that is tutoring. Especially in a small town.
I remember a good friend driving two and a half hours
to take her son to tutoring.
I spent from $300 (for a second grade teacher)
to $800 a summer (Sylvan) for tutoring over
the summer. Now I know enough to feel confident
to tutor my son myself.

Another option open to homeschoolers in our area
is a church sponsored educational day. Volunteers
would teach lessons in *cool* science stuff that is hard
to duplicate at home, or work with the kids to stage
a play, or organize games with lots of kids to get the
interaction and socialization (which is always a conc

Anne,

Good points! You’re right that after I learn all these specialized methods, I could probably tutor all I wanted! I had thought I would eventually do that anyway.

And related to the educational day, I have heard of homeschoolers doing co-ops where one person might teach science and one might teach math, etc. to a small group. I could probably handle that if we were homeschooling her at an older age. There actually is an active homeschool support group here. I know they have 4-H, group gymnastics, and swimming lessons just to name a few activities.

I might have to keep her in the charter school part-time, though, to keep speech/language services.

Thanks!
Janis

Beth,

Well it sounds like if we do it at all, it should be this summer. Next year is pretty critical and if there is something that would give her a better foundation for learning, she needs it soon.

Did you pre- and post-test (FFW) your son with anything?

Janis

Janis,

I had FFW recommended by both slt and audiologist but didn’t really do post testing except for the auditory testing. That is when, as I said, the decoding and tolerance fading memory diagnoses were no longer made.

Beth

It would be unlikely that I’d repeat APD testing afterwards since we had to go so far to get it to begin with. I was thinking of maybe repeating some of the language testing afterwards, though. I wonder if we’d be able to see any effect there?

Janis

I recieved data on my child’s progress from the website?

Janis,

As I recall from the website, it seems like people did do before and after language testing. It just didn’t work out that way for us. I had language testing done afterwards but not before.

Beth