My ten year old daughter (5th grader) was just diagnosed with NLD although even the neuro-psych that diagnosed her was not totally sure this was the correct diagnoses.
She did have a significant discrepancy in her verbal IQ score and her nonverbal; 89 for her verbal vs. 69 for her non-verbal. She also has the telltale difficulties reading non-verbal cues, and thus significant social issues. However, there also were so many of the characteristics missing. She has excellent gross motor skills and her fine motor skills do not seem to be too bad, (writing is cumbersome for her but she can write both print and cursive nicely, when she concentrates). She learned to read early as indicated most NLD children do, BUT, by first grade her reading abilities actually backtracked and became increasingly difficult. Also she does not have a great rore memory.
She is now 5th grade but functioning at a 2-3 ,(at best) ,grade level in both reading and math. Her phonics level however is only at a 1st grade level. Her vocabulary is not advanced like the books and sites say is customary. So, it seems she has most (not all) the defecits and none of the assets that compensate for the defecits in NLD. Her overall IQ score was only 77. But that was due to the huge discreapancies in certain areas/tests. None of her results were above low average though.
Verbal was 89, nonverbal 69, wrking memory 94, processing speed 78, (on this she did average on 1 and horrible on the other subtest).
Her executive functions are poor, and academics were poor across the board.
Her neuro-psych also felt unsure because she felt that my daughters educational history was different then she is familiar with. My daughter was home-schooled until 7 and then when I felt that we were a bad match (teacher-student) I sent her to a very small Islamic school that was using a sort of discovery learning method and leaning toward Montessori, (the last 2 years they made the full leap to Montessori), so I don’t see how that is so ‘different’ (except that it was an Islamic school).
Those that are familiar with NLD does it still sound as though this is what she has, because I can’t seem to find any stories or information about NLD people that don’t have the afformentioned assets (excellent reading, rote meory,..).
There was a time when she seemed to be such a smart little girl, and now I am not seeing much of that, just an angry, depressed, child that cannot keep up with her peers academically. This diagnossis has been quite depressing for me, although it has given me more compassion towards her.
Ok, lastly, I live in Washington D.C. and am considering putting her in a special needs school so I need resources to start looking into, in my area, if anyone has any suggestions.
Thanks,
Kareema
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
Des ,
that was very helpful, thank you.
A couple of questions though. Can you give me some links and or give an outline of what global ld is?all I have foundis global DD, which basically is retardation from what I read so far.
And, does anyone know anything about art-therapy? Where might I look to find something like this? I haven’t found much out there on the web, but I feel strongly that this may be something very beneficial to my daughter.
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
I forgot to mention, this same child has managed to learn to read, write, and understand and speak Arabic with some level of profficiency ( we are not native speakers). Only she and I know any arabic and hers is better than mine.
Did the neuropsyche test her in BOTH languages??
I am an SLP and for the life of me I can’t figure out why some assessors do not take a child’s exposure and proficiency in other languages than just English. This child has been exposed to several languages and this could have a HUGE impact on those low verbal scores you are getting. She may not have a global LD it may be due to her difficulties in assimilating and learning 2 different languages, homeschooling etc… In order to tease these scores apart further she would need to be assessed in the Arabic and see what she knows in Arabic and what she knows in English…and then go from there…but to say she is MR is a little early considering her exposure to Arabic and English…This poor kid is probably still trying to sort things apart…Arabic and English…
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
Oh gee well as Patti said the language issue is very vexing. I would imagine that that is the issue. BTW, a global ld is not retardation. As Patti said with the language issues you would not even look at that at all yet. But even so, one can have learnign disabilities in multiple areas that are both verbal (like reading) and non-verbal (like math). In fact, it is quite typical. You *cannot* dx ld on the basis of IQ discrepancy. I thought this was out, but I know that some diagnosticians are in the dark ages. I don’t know for some psychologists they just can’t wait to use the NVLD dx and are just all excited they can use it, they don’t worry that when it doesn’t actually apply. ;-)
I have had lots of kids with code shifting problems. (Mostly Navajo and Spanish in these parts.) Anyway, some of them don’t even know all that much Spanish or Navajo, but it does have impact on their ability to read and use use in both languages. It’s a huge task, that most kids do accomplish pretty well— an amazing thing really. Much more amazing than the fact that some kids do get mixed up to some extent.
—des
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
A distinction I find useful is the difference between a nonverbal learning disability and NLD. My son was diagnosed with a nonverbal learning disability by a neurologist as well as dyslexia. In other words, he has both nonverbal and verbal learning disabilities. Like your child, he does not fit a NLD profile. One therapist we took him to told me that he has nonverbal learning disabilities but not at the level of a syndrome. In other words, NLD is a particularly severe profile of nonverbal learning disaibilities, which is also accompanied by specific verbal strengthes. My son was not as severe as NLD in the deficits but he also did not have the strengths of this syndrome.
This is a challenging combination but it is not the same as being mentally retarded. LD children have discrepancies between their highs and lows rather than a low all the way around. Also, some IQ test scores do rise with appropriate remediation.
Beth
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
hmm, that is strange I thought I psted a clarification on the last thing I wrote about her speaking Arabic, but I don’t see it here now.
What I was trying to say but I think I said it nuclearly, is that we are note native Arabic speakers, we are english only speaking background, and yet from 2 parents that speak English (I learned some Arabic with her when she homeschooled at age 5, but when she went to school she passed my level), she was able to learn a second a language, not any 2nd language but a #6 (considered one of the most difficult ). Again she is not completely fluent but she understands and can have some conversation.
Anyway just wanted to clarify because I think it probably sounded like I was saying we were not native English speakers. Rather we are native English speakers ans we/she learned Arabic. Does that clarify more?
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
I have been thinking about your message but am not sure what to advise so I stayed out of this until now. As far as languages, it is generally *good* and intelligence-enhancing to learn a second language. If she has made this much progress with Arabic, it might be a good move to *increase* her exposure, perhaps to get her a tutor in Arabic, perhaps to join in activities where that is the language spoken. Work on success where you find it.
English and Arabic writing and phonics are totally different, so transfer will be slower than with related languages. I have students who have been taught to read in French and who transfer to English within months, but of course those languages use the same alphabet and direction and many related words. Arabic will be slower to transfer, but yes, it does transfer, so if she is learning to read, good, continue what is working.
Unfortunately English phonics is often badly mis-taught, and we get many one-language students who are very confused about English. So don’t be too quick to blame the second language. I have several students right now who read English in the wrong direction, *without* any interference from a right-to-left system. A lot of so-called “dyslexic” behaviours are connected to this bad tracking. This could quite possibly be part of your daughter’s issues.
Because of the language issue and the issue of different systems and cultural expectations, I would not believe too firmly in any IQ results you have. They may rise quite a bit with direct teaching of the skills she needs.
If you can get an experienced tutor or educational therapist to work with your daughter, they can find out exactly what skils she has and what she is missing. That can give a more accurate picture and also guidance for what to do to help her.
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
Yeah after looking at the Lab school link and researching the school options here, I am thinking that she probably will not get into the Lab school, however they also have tutoring for ld and I am leaning towards home schooling her and getting her intensive remedial tutoring from the Lab school, as well as a tutor in Arabic and start her in some sort of pottery class (she loves art it seems, and I hope to try and cultivate that), and lastly maybe try and get her some sort of behavioural tharapy (?)
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to go about finding a behavioural therapy group for children that have this inabilaty to read non-verbal social cues?
Does this sound like a viable plan? It seems that I am going to basically have to stop the rest of my day activities. I have 4 other children and was teaching a class in their homeschool group (their homeshool group is totally not a good fit my eldest daughter).
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
Beth do you have any advice from your experiences with your son? Did you post your story anywhere on these forums?
Des thanks for clarifying that with global ld, as I said I couldn’t find it but after reading about global DD I sort of figured out what you were saying, I just wanted to be sure.
Victoria, I am looking at getting a tutor from the Lab school from what I read they have extensive and current training in ld’s do you think they would fit under what you are suggesting?
And again anysuggestions concerning teaching her appropriatte social skills since I am considering the home-schooling route?
Re: newly diagnosed child w/NLD... maybe
My advice would be to try to remediate sensory-motor before academic deficits. In my son’s case, he had auditory processing and visual processing deficits as well as motor based deficits. We saw a jump in IQ, as measured by testing, after we did Fast Forward, a program that works on auditory processing. Basically, he couldn’t understand directions enough to perform on the IQ test to adequately test his capabilities.
One therapy that helped my son’s social skills was Interactive Metronome. I really have no idea why and would not thought much of the coincidence except that I read something similar from someone whose child was diagnosed with Asberger’s syndrome. My son was always a bit off socially but not horribly so. He had some neighborhood friends but was def. was on the edge of things socially at school. More than anything, he was in his own world. My family saw him before he did IM (he was 9) and then again several months later at Thanksgiving. Both my sister and my mom commented on how much more connected he seemed.
IM also helped my son’s motor skills, including handwriting.
If your child’s coordination is adequate, I would have her take swimming lessons and gymnastic or karate lessons.
I would have her auditory processing checked by a pediatric audiologist to make sure that there are not auditory issues underlying her reading difficulties. Some can be remediated by sound reading instruction geared for the LD population.
We have done tons of therapy, almost continuously since my son was 7 until this fall when he was 12.5. He is doing well. He is a B student in a parochial school, plays basketball and soccer at school, and has friends. He does not get subtlies of humor still and is not a great conceptual thinker but he is universally well liked. I have to reteach math at home and my husband does the same for science. He does not read for pleasure, except headlines and captions, but is able to read his textbooks. His IQ tested as 85 at ages 3 and 5, but tested at 99 after we did Fast Forward at age 7. He still had a significantly lower performance than verbal score. We have done a lot of therapy since but haven’t had him retested.
In first grade, the teacher told me my son couldn’t learn. With our kids, you don’t know what is possible which is both the hope and the despair. For years, I wondered if my son would graduate from high school. Unlike my sister in law whose child has down’s syndrome, the verdict was never clear. I think the same is true for your own dd. As others have noted, her ability to pick up a second language suggests that her capabilities are greater than she tested.
Beth
Social skills
Again…the more you write the more I see that this isn’t just a kid with a normal intelligence and learning difference, there are many factors, now you bring up social skills, and more details in her aquiring 2 languages, and yes you may be English only with her but she has had exposure from some native speakers since she was young…possibly from grandparents, caregivers etc..
The best person to tease these issues apart, i.e., Pragmatic language, expressive and receptive language, phonology, auditory processing would be a speech pathologist who is familiar with children who are learning Arabic/English languages to determine if she is having a language delay or a language difference. The SLP can also help you with the social skills development. That is called Pragmatic Language.
You know that we can’t diagnose over the internet (and I am not a diagnostian in real life either), but this sounds more like a global ld. Since she is pretty young the IQ test reflected verbal info gained from listening and absorbing vs reading. Her early reading was based on being read to and associating words in a book with text. IOW, sounds like a sight word vocabulary. She does sound like she does have language (ie verbal) learning disabilities, who is able to compensate somewhat (or was when younger) thru fairly good memory, a favorable teaching style to her needs, and early stimulation.
The Lab School in Washington DC has an excellent reputation.
http://www.labschool.org/
(I am not a parent and have no actual experience with the school though.)
Sally Smith who started the school wrote a book (quite awhile ago), “No Easy Answers”, I think that statement still applies.
—des